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Q: for missy (conditioners) ( Answered,   2 Comments )
Question  
Subject: for missy (conditioners)
Category: Science > Chemistry
Asked by: anonymous777-ga
List Price: $70.00
Posted: 24 Jan 2003 11:21 PST
Expires: 23 Feb 2003 11:21 PST
Question ID: 148053
can u copmare the clariol renewel revitalize conditoner to the "vivid
color locking conditioner daily moisterizer for color treated hair??
whats less drying and mor maoisterizing??? can a conditioner block up
folicls or br harsh??
  thanks!!!

Request for Question Clarification by missy-ga on 24 Jan 2003 11:30 PST
Hi there!

You know what?  I'm going to start calling you Jim.  I feel like we
should be sitting down like neighbors and talking about hair and
shampoo over coffee now, and calling you "Anonymous" sounds funny to
me.  Unless you'd like to tell me what your first name really is? 
<*grin*>

I'm fishing around for the ingredients lists right now, I'll keep you
posted as to my progress.

--Missy

Clarification of Question by anonymous777-ga on 24 Jan 2003 11:47 PST
my name is johnny!!(grin) i am in a real dilema(sp) because i have
used the botanoil for 3 days now and my hair feels real hard and
stiff! when i rub my hands through my hair, hair falls or is pulled
out!! i just used the clariol conditioner and i love it!!! maybe it
has somthing to do with the (5 times stronger) ??? that is there
selling motto! i have been using the vivid moisterizing conditioner
and i need to know if its drying my hair out also!! this conditioner
is by graham webb if you have not found it  yet!! thanks again!!!

Request for Question Clarification by missy-ga on 24 Jan 2003 12:14 PST
Johnny!  Excellent!  

OK, here's the situation:  I found the ingredient list for the Clairol
Renewal 5x
Conditioner, Replenishing for Dry/Damaged Hair online.  The Graham
Webb, however, was another matter entirely.  I'll have to go out to
get that list, to a salon across town - the stylist I spoke to
couldn't read it to me, the print was too tiny!

I can't leave until my sons get home from school (in about 20
minutes).  After that, it will probably take about an hour and a half
or so to go pick up the list.  I'll let you know when I get back!

--Missy

Request for Question Clarification by missy-ga on 24 Jan 2003 15:37 PST
Hi Johnny!

I'm back, with a pretty blue tube of Graham Webb Vivid Color Color
Locking Conditioner..  As with the other questions I've worked on for
you, I'm going to pick out all of the ingredients we've already talked
about, and set those aside, then explain the ones we haven't seen yet.

Additionally, I printed out your questions and took them with me to
Artistic Creations at Westgate Meadows in Toledo.  The stylist who
helped me, Steve, was very concerned when he read that you're using "a
lot" of Rogaine.  He told me to tell you to stop immediately and see a
professional about getting your hair and scalp straightened around,
because using too much Rogaine will make your problem worse, no matter
what hair products you use.

Steve also gave me a terrific little book with a list of resources for
you, which I will discuss at the end of your answer.  In the meantime,
I have a list to transcribe, then I'll get it all sorted out for you. 
I expect to be finished in 2 1/2 hours or so.

--Missy
Answer  
Subject: Re: for missy (conditioners)
Answered By: missy-ga on 24 Jan 2003 18:24 PST
 
Hello Johnny!

I hope you're well today, and not freezing the way we are in Ohio!  

It took a little telephoning and a trip to the West End of town, but I
did lay hands on a tube of the Graham Webb product.  I also got a ton
of great advice from a well respected hair stylist who insisted that I
pass a few things on to you.  I'll get to those in just a bit.  First,
the ingredient lists:

Clairol Renewal 5x Conditioner, Replenishing for Dry/Damaged Hair:

Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Cetyl Esters, Behentrimonium Chloride,
Panthenol, Vaccinium Myrtillus Extract, Saccharum Officinarum (Sugar
Cane) Extract, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein, Citrus Medica Limonum (Lemon)
Fruit Extract, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Fruit Extract,
Hydrolyzed Elastin, Retinyl Palmitate, Acer Saccharinum (Sugar Maple)
Extract, Linoleic Acid, Amodimethicone, Cetrimonium Chloride,
Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Cyclomethicone, Dimethicone Copolyol,
Citric Acid, PEG 35 Castor Oil, Fragrance, Trideceth 12, Polysorbate
20, Disodium EDTA, Phytantriol, Sodium PCA, Methylparaben,
Propylparaben, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone


Graham Webb Vivid Color Color Locking Conditioner:

Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methysulfate, Dimethicone,
Propylene Glycol, Aloe Extract, Chamomile Extract, Rosemary Extract,
Sage Extract, Symphytum Extract, Panthenol, Allantoin, Hydrolized
Wheat Protein, Tocopheryl Acetate, Wheat Amino Acids, Hydrolized Silk,
Stearalkonium Chloride, Trimethylsilylaodimethicone, Hydroxycellulose,
Isolaurethe-6, Octoxynol-40, PEG-8/SMDI Copolymer, PPG-12 SMDI
Copolymer, Ethyhexl Methlylcinnamate, Myristyl Alcohol, Citric Acid,
Tetrasodium EDTA, Benzophenone-4, Methylparaben,
Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Fragrance.


These are the ingredients we've already discussed:

Water
Panthenol
Saccharum Officinarum (Sugar Cane) Extract
Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein
Citrus Medica Limonum (Lemon) Fruit Extract
Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Fruit Extract
Hydrolyzed Elastin
Retinyl Palmitate
Acer Saccharinum (Sugar Maple) Extract
Dimethicone Copolyol
Citric Acid,
PEG 35 Castor Oil
Fragrance
Polysorbate 20
Disodium EDTA
Methylparaben,
Propylparaben
Methylchloroisothiazolinone
Methylisothiazolinone
Dimethicone
Propylene Glycol
Vaccinium Myrtillus Extract (Bilberry)
Aloe Extract
Chamomile Extract
Symphytum (Comfrey) Extract
Rosemary Extract
Sage Extract
Tocopheryl Acetate
Myristyl Alcohol
Citric Acid
Tetrasodium EDTA

If you want to review the definitions and uses of any of these
ingredients, you can find them on the questions I've answered for you
over the past few days:

Compare Chemicals In Shampoos
http://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=146590 

Tea Tree
http://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=147124

American Crew
http://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=147473 


Both Conditioners contain Cetearyl Alcohol, sometimes also called
Ceterostearyl Alcohol.  This is an emulsifier – a substance which
helps the other ingredients blend and stay together.

Cetearyl Alcohol
http://www.totalskincare.com/library/totalskincare_c_cetearyl-alcohol.html


The remaining ingredients for each product follow:

Clairol Renewal 5x Conditioner, Replenishing for Dry/Damaged Hair:

**Cetyl Esters – lubricating agent derived from esters, or products
synthesized from the reaction of acids and alcohol.  These are what
make the conditioner slippery.

About Esters
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_esters.html

**Behentrimonium Chloride  - an anti-static agent and surfactant

Inventory of Ingredients Used In Cosmetics
http://dg3.eudra.org/F3/inci/inciabe.htm 

**Amodimethicone – a silicone additive, used to make hair feel smooth
and silky.  A conditioning agent.

“Cones”
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/long_hair_community/cone.html

**Cetrimonium Chloride – a more water soluble conditioning agent

Make Your Own Cosmetics Glossary
http://www.makingcosmetics.com/makingcosmetics/glossary/03_glossary_c.html

**Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine – a derivative of stearic acid.

“A water-soluble derivative of stearic acid. Possesses unique
properties of closing hair cuticles over a wide range of pH.”

Make Your Own Cosmetics Glossary
http://www.makingcosmetics.com/makingcosmetics/glossary/19_glossary_s.html


**Cyclomethicone – a silicone derivative.  Adds shine and body.

“Adds luster and sheen and emollients benefits, used as a carrier for
other ingredients.”

Hair Products Ingredients
http://www.fredonline.co.uk/ingredientlist.htm 

**Trideceth 12 – an anti-buildup agent.  Slightly weakens silicone
additives to help prevent build-up

“Cones”
http://www.angelfire.com/empire/long_hair_community/cone.html 

**Phytantriol – encourages moisture retention.

“Phytantriol's value has been demonstrated through its ability to
increase moisture retention.”

BASF – Cosmetic Ingredients
http://www.basf.com/businesses/consumer/cosmeticingredients/html/pr980712.html

**Sodium PCA – a naturally occurring humectant

“Occurs naturally in human skin and is responsible for binding
moisture to the cells. Highly water-absorbent, holding several times
its weight in water, which makes it an excellent humectant.”

Make Your Own Cosmetics Glossary
http://www.makingcosmetics.com/makingcosmetics/glossary/19_glossary_s.html



Graham Webb Vivid Color Color Locking Conditioner:

**Behentrimonium Methysulfate – an anti-static agent and surfactant

Inventory of Ingredients Used In Cosmetics
http://dg3.eudra.org/F3/inci/inciabe.htm 

** Wheat Amino Acids – protein building blocks, derived from wheat. 
Helps strengthen hair and hold in vitamins.

**Hydrolized Silk – silk.  Used to help make hair stronger and more
resilient.

**Stearalkonium Chloride – an antistatic agent

Make Your Own Cosmetics Glossary
http://www.makingcosmetics.com/makingcosmetics/glossary/19_glossary_s.html

**Trimethylsilylaodimethicone – a silicone derivative.  A conditioning
agent, lends shine and “slipperyness”

“This branched chain silicone fluid gives excellent wet and dry
combing and is available in emulsion form, greatly simplifying its
incorporation into hair conditioning products.  The hair serums are
generally solutions of dimethicone or dimethiconol in cyclomethicone,
the latter reducing product viscosity and improving spreadability
while the dimethicone or dimethiconol is deposited on the hair shaft
as a thin film, giving an unique feel of slip and smoothness and
conferring a high gloss.”

Advances In The Use Of Silicones In Cosmetics
http://www.connock.co.uk/Article%20-%20Silicones.htm 

**Hydroxycellulose – a polymer, used as a thickening agent.  Coats the
hair shaft.

Make Your Own Cosmetics Glossary
http://www.makingcosmetics.com/makingcosmetics/glossary/08_glossary_h.html

**Isolaurethe-6 – an emulsifier

Inventory of Ingredients Used In Cosmetics
http://dg3.eudra.org/F3/inci/inciais.htm 

**Octoxynol-40 – an emulsifier and surfactant

Inventory of Ingredients Used In Cosmetics
http://dg3.eudra.org/F3/inci/inciaoc.htm 

**PEG-8/SMDI Copolymer, PPG-12 SMDI Copolymer – “film formers”.  Coat
and protect the hair shaft.

Inventory of Ingredients Used in Cosmetics
http://dg3.eudra.org/F3/inci/incif10.htm 

**Ethyhexl Methlylcinnamate – a sunscreen

Chembytes eZine
http://www.chemsoc.org/chembytes/ezine/2001/woodruff_jul01.htm

**Benzophenone-4 – a sunscreen

Trevor Sorbie Professional
http://www.jtspeaks.com/sorbie5.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both conditioners are fairly similar in composition.  

The Graham Webb product uses a different combination of herbal
extracts (chamomile, rosemary, sage and comfrey) for their scalp
soothing effects and their value as aromatics (they make the product
smell very pleasing and soothing).

The Clairol product makes liberal use of citrus extracts, for their
“shine” properties and also for their aromatic value.  Where the
Graham Webb product has a lush, “green” or forest-y scent, the Clairol
product smells citrusy and somewhat exotic.  These aren’t going to
affect the performance of the conditioners, just the way you feel when
you smell them.  This would come down to personal choice.

Both appear to offer the same conditioning and moisturizing
properties, sharing many ingredients in common.  Personally,  I’d give
a very slight edge to the Graham Webb product due to the extra
“protectors”, such as silk, hydroxycellulose, sunscreens and the
various copolymers.  Based on what I learned from Steve, however, I’d
recommend that you avoid it.  More on that in a minute.

Overall verdict:  Tie.  If you plan to be out in the sun for a long
while, or color your hair, the Graham Webb may be more suitable, but
only for occasional use.  If you’re not going to color your hair or
otherwise mistreat it, you’re fine with the Clairol.

To answer the rest of your question, yes, conditioners can and do
build up on your hair and can sometimes plug up the follicles.  Steve
at Artistic Creations said that if you regularly use products that are
supposed “volumize” or “thicken” your hair, you’re flirting with build
up.  They’re fine for occasional use, but you’re better off sticking
with something lightweight.

Steve said that the best thing for you to do to get your hair and
scalp difficulties straightened around is to consult with a
professional hair stylist.  A stylist can examine your hair and scalp
and help you devise a plan to care for your hair; stylists are very
well suited to recommend helpful products for you or point you in the
direction of a good dermatologist if your hair products are irritating
your scalp.  He said that above all else, you really need to be very
careful with your Rogaine dosages – too much can *permanently damage*
your hair follicles, which is exactly the opposite of what you want –
so follow your Rogaine instructions to the letter.

He also gave me a nifty little book published by Nioxin Research
Laboratories, in Atlanta, GA.  It’s called “An Educated Look into the
Causes of Hair Loss”.  This 28 page guide explores the most common
forms and causes of hair loss, and discusses treatments, including
alternatives to Rogaine.  A tip from pages 24– 25:  “You need to
select cleansers, conditioners, treatments, supplements and styling
products that contain bionutrients like vitamins, proteins and amino
acids.  These provide the nourishment living hair and skin need to be
healthy.  Avoid products with sticky animal proteins, polymers,
plastics, resins, alcohol, or that claim to “volumize” the hair.  They
may help you achieve the look you seek, but they can also build up on
the scalp and block the hair follicle.”

An Educated Look into the Causes of Hair Loss – pp.24 –25
Nioxin Research Laboratories, 2001

You can call Nioxin for a free copy of this book at 1-800-628-9890 or
visit their website:

Nioxin
http://www.nioxin.com

The book also includes some hair loss resources which you might find
helpful:

The National Alopecia Areata Foundation
710 C Street, Suite 11
San Rafael, CA, 94901
(415) 456-4644

The American Hair Loss Council
http://www.ahlc.org 
1-888-873-9719

I hope the information I’ve gathered here is helpful to you!  If I can
be of further assistance, please don’t hesitate to ask for
clarification.  I’ll do everything I can to help you out!


-- Missy

Search terms:  Listed ingredients, in-person consultation with
licensed stylist.

Request for Answer Clarification by anonymous777-ga on 25 Jan 2003 13:03 PST
hi again, can you find me a light weight conditioner??? i cant tell
whats what !!! i need a very moistuerizing conditioner that wont cause
build up. can you do some good research for a good tip????????

Clarification of Answer by missy-ga on 25 Jan 2003 13:11 PST
Hi Johnny!

I'm supposed to be away from GA today, but couldn't resist checking
in.

I have some grocery shopping to do, so while I'm out, I'll have a look
at some lightweight conditioners and get back to you later this
evening.  I have some family committments to tend to today.

--Missy

Request for Answer Clarification by anonymous777-ga on 25 Jan 2003 16:50 PST
how is the anser going????

Clarification of Answer by missy-ga on 25 Jan 2003 18:30 PST
Evenin', Johnny!  I hope you're enjoying your Saturday!

I've assembled a short list of very good, goop-free (no animal
proteins and no plasticizers!) lightweight conditioners for you to
have a look at.  Each one is linked to its ingredient list at
Drugstore.com, and includes a brief description.  Of the seven listed,
I've used all but the EO and the ABBA myself, and have been happy with
the overall performance of all of them.


** Kiss My Face Aromatherapeutic Conditioner, Light Weight**
Certified organic blend of  Lavender, Hibiscus, Horsetail, Rose Hips,
Red Raspberry and Thyme.  Oils of Grapefruit, Jojoba, Lemongrass and
Lemon.  Also contains wheat proteins, wheat amino acids, Panthenol
(B5) and Vitamin E.

Kiss My Face Aromatherapeutic Conditioner, Light Weight
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=70279 

** Aveda Shampure Conditioner**
100% Botanical formula.  Very light, non drying, no build up. 
Contains extracts of lavender, peppermint, rosemary.  Also contains
brazil nut proteins, wheat proteins and wheat amino acids.

Aveda Shampure Conditioner
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=75194&catid=29177 

**Aussie Hair Salad**
Contains extracts of lettuce, carrot, tomato, corn, garlic, lemon,
pineapple and peppermint.  Adds shine and moisturizes, without
buildup.

Aussie Hair Salad
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=26984&catid=10335

**EO Hair Repair Conditioner**
100% Botanical formula.  Light and non drying, no build up.  Nourishes
and protects with extracts of Horsetail, Aloe, Hops, White Ginger,
Wild Cherry Bark and Nettle.  Also contains Canola Oil, Vegetable
Glycerin, Safflower Oil, Mango Seed Oil, Wheat Amino Acids, and
Vitamin A.

EO Hair Repair Conditioner
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=73001&catid=10329 

**ABBA TruMint Light Daily Conditioner**
Extracts of Blue Malva, rosemary, sage, and balm mint.  Also contains
Panthenol (vitamin B5), and hydrolyzed wheat proteins.

ABBA TruMint Light Daily Conditioner
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=46855&catid=11938 

** Suave Professionals – Awaphui**
Light and versatile – rinse it out or leave it in!  No build up. 
Contains Algae, Rosemary, Wheat Germ Oil, Jojoba Oil, Henna, White
Ginger (Awapuhi), Aloe and Hair Keratin Amino Acids.  Even better, if
you don’t like it, Suave will refund 100% of the purchase price.

Suave Professionals – Awaphui
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=27079&catid=10327 

** Citre Shine - Daily Revitalize Conditioner**
Very light, pleasant smell, no buildup.  Contains extracts of lime,
tangerine and grapefruit, as well as cottonseed oil, wheat proteins,
wheat amino acids, beta carotene and panthenol (B5).

Citre Shine - Daily Revitalize Conditioner
http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=76662&catid=10327 


If you're looking to make a trial run of a couple, I highly recommend
the Kiss My Face and Aveda products - they're 100% plant products,
very light and easy to obtain.  Or, if you're interested in a more
in-depth comparison, choose two that you'd like to have compared, and
I'll go through the ingredients for you.

Due to family commitments this weekend, I'll be away from my desk
until Monday morning.  If you have any questions about this list or
want a couple compared, please feel free to ask for a clarification,
and I'll take care of it as soon as I return to my desk on Monday.

Have a terrific weekend!

--Missy
Comments  
Subject: Re: for missy (conditioners)
From: hummer-ga on 25 Jan 2003 05:46 PST
 
Hi Johnny and Missy,

A most impressive answer, Missy - well done!  I hope you two don't
mind if I just add a wee thought to the discussions about hair loss.

Patrick Stewart (Jean-Luc Picard, Captain of the Starship Enterprise,
Second Generation). Now there's one hunk of a guy - with or without
hair, it doesn't really matter. I think that just as women are
learning to accept their bodies "as is" rather than trying to look
like half-starved super models, men are learning to accept their
receding hairlines, no matter their age. I happen to know a guy who
was your age when he began losing his hair (not just a receding
hairline) and I know for a fact that his wife wouldn't be his wife if
he had been pouring stuff on his scalp, had donned a rug or had had
hair transplants. She's crazy about the guy, as nature intended, and
often even rubs his nice smooth top for good luck.

Just something to think about -
hummer
Subject: Re: for missy (conditioners)
From: missy-ga on 25 Jan 2003 13:09 PST
 
Mmmmm...Jean-Luc...yummy...but you forgot Michael Jordan!  I'd pay $5
to lick the top of his head!

--Missy

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