This web page points to a few pictures of a bone I found a week ago.
Can you identify it?
http://www.albany.edu/~kb1999/whatsthis/ |
Clarification of Question by
kbarclay-ga
on
25 Jun 2003 07:40 PDT
Please identify the animal and the bone. A picture of a complete
skeleton or study bone would help.
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Request for Question Clarification by
knowledge_seeker-ga
on
25 Jun 2003 08:07 PDT
Hi kbarclay,
I'd be happy to try to ID your skull. I have a pretty good collection
of animal skulls myself and I know how to key them out.
One thing will be necessary though. I need a sense of scale. How big
is it?
Can you either retake the photos with a ruler across them, or just
give me an idea of length end-to-end -- (pics with a ruler would be
best!)
Especially these --
http://www.albany.edu/~kb1999/whatsthis/img/(5).jpg
http://www.albany.edu/~kb1999/whatsthis/img/(6).jpg
http://www.albany.edu/~kb1999/whatsthis/img/(3).jpg
Also, if you can get a better shot of the teeth that would be
wonderful. Did you find any other teeth? If so, I could use closeups
of those. (Teeth are important for differentiating skulls)
Finally, (I know I'm asking a lot here .. sorry), could you label the
individual pieces. For example, I can see you have a skull there -- so
the skull would be Piece A. Then there are what, two other parts? I
just need to know what's the back of what.
If you could do those things, I'll be happy to try and figure out what
you've got there.
-K~
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Clarification of Question by
kbarclay-ga
on
25 Jun 2003 11:10 PDT
I am not sure if this bone is a skull. If it is, it is not like any
mammalian skull I have seen. There is a void that seems to be a brain
casing, but it is pretty rough inside.
I will give dimensionsand descriptions for the pictures from left to
right, top to bottom.
I really cannot claim orientation as I do not know the position of
this bone as it naturally occurred. My guesses are in quotes.
Picture 1:
"Front view"
looking into what appears to be the brain casing, exposed (apparently)
by gnawing. 4" across and 3" top to bottom in this view.
Picture 2:
"left side" view of object.
3" across and 5" top to bottom
Picture 3:
"Bottom view"
4.5" across and 5" top to bottom
Picture 4:
"right side" view of object
"top" is on left side of picture
3" across x 5" top to bottom
Picture 5:
"Back view" of object
4.5" across and 3" top to bottom
Picture 6:
"right side"
"Back" is on left, "top" on top, "bottom" on bottom
5" across, 3.5" top to bottom
Picture 7:
"left side"
"back" is on right, "top" on top, "bottom" on bottom
note gnawing has removed more material than on right side.
4" across, 3.5" top to bottom
Picture 8:
"left side" is upside down
back on left, "top" on bottom, "bottom" on top
5" across, 3.5" top to bottom
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Clarification of Question by
kbarclay-ga
on
25 Jun 2003 12:38 PDT
All of the pictures are of the same bone.
Of Porcine Osteology:
I have looked through
http://uianesthesia.com/rasci/assets/Comparativepighumananatomy.pdf
and have not been able to find a comparible bone.
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Request for Question Clarification by
knowledge_seeker-ga
on
25 Jun 2003 12:41 PDT
Thank you kbarclay,
That should help me narrow this down. Your bone is most certainly a
skull. See this image and compare it to your image #5 …
Skull Posterior.jpg
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/Skull
Posterior.jpg
Your Image 5
http://www.albany.edu/~kb1999/whatsthis/img/(5).jpg
As you can see, that is the rear view of a typical mammalian skull (in
my example, a house cat). The following photos show the same skull in
proper orientation from all angles. Take a look at what you've got and
try to orient it in the same way, and you'll see what I mean.
Skull Anterior.jpg
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/Skull Anterior.jpg
Skull Inferior.jpg
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/Skull
Inferior.jpg
Skull Lateral.jpg
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/Skull Lateral.jpg
Skull Superior.jpg
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/Skull
Superior.jpg
Because of the extreme damage to your skull I'm having difficulty
interpreting the orientation of some of your photos. I'll keep
researching this as best I can now that I have your sizes, but
anything you can do to improve the angles on your pictures to match
those examples I've given you would be greatly helpful.
Thanks –
-K~
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Request for Question Clarification by
knowledge_seeker-ga
on
25 Jun 2003 12:44 PDT
oh dear, my links didn't work.
Try these --
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/Skull%20Posterior.jpg
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/Skull%20Anterior.jpg
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/Skull%20Inferior.jpg
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/Skull%20Lateral.jpg
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/Skull%20Superior.jpg
Sorry about that ...
-K~
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Clarification of Question by
kbarclay-ga
on
26 Jun 2003 04:50 PDT
http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~wjh101/hedbone/Cattle/cattle_vent.jpg
You're right. I believe this is a skull as well. See the above
picture for comparison. I don't think this
The animal's face seems to have been sawed off. This may help, or it
just may be gross. I'll try to have more pictures as soon as
possible.
Thanks,
-Ken
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Request for Question Clarification by
knowledge_seeker-ga
on
26 Jun 2003 15:30 PDT
Hi again Ken,
Ok, here's what I've done to give us a better idea of what we're
dealing with. I've performed a bit of Photoshop magic on a beaver
skull (because it's roughly the same size as yours) so that you can
see what we're looking at here.
Here's your shot of the INFERIOR view – rotated correctly.
UNKNOWN SKULL - ROTATED
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/UnknskullInf.jpg
Here is a whole beaver skull – same view
BEAVER SKULL
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/beaverskull.jpg
Here is the cropped version of the same beaver skull
BEAVER SKULL CROPPED
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/skullcropped.jpg
Basically, your skull has been cross-sectioned just in front of the
soft palate. I see now (it took a gestalt shift for me to get there)
what I mistook for a tooth in one of the other views, is in fact a
bony process.
So, where does that leave us? Not entirely stuck, but certainly in a
difficult position. As I mentioned before, teeth are the easiest way
to identify a skull. Without those, this is going to be harder.
If you want to spend the time to take some better photos positioned
"right-side-up" that would be great. Meanwhile, I'll spend some more
time comparing what we've already got to what I know and can find
online. With luck, between the 2 of us, we'll get there.
-K~
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Clarification of Question by
kbarclay-ga
on
30 Jun 2003 21:09 PDT
Thanks for all of your hard work. I am very curious to determine what
type of skull this is.
The occipital bone is very thick and dense. It is easy to imagine
this animal had much head weight or impact to support. The channel
where the muscles for chewing passed through is also quite large,
impressing on me that the animal had powerful jaws, perhaps for
grinding.
I can certainly take more photos of this in any position you request.
I can also send it to you along with a return label if you believe
that having it in your possession would be of any benefit.
The other alternatives I've thought of are to take a trip to the NY
State Museum or to a veterinarian for more clues. Please let me know
what your preference is.
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Request for Question Clarification by
knowledge_seeker-ga
on
01 Jul 2003 07:12 PDT
Good Morning Ken,
Sorry to leave you hanging. We've had a holiday weekend here so I've
been off the air for several days.
Thanks for your offer to mail the skull to me. Although that would be
the most ideal solution, (I'd LOVE to get in my hands and really be
able to see the fine details!) I'm afraid we can't do that - both for
Google Answers TOS reasons and for practical reasons; I don't live in
the US.
Here's what I suggest we do. I have found a couple other sources to
compare your pictures to, so I'll make one last effort to find a match
that way. If I'm unable to do that in the next day or so, I'll let you
know. Then we can focus on finding someone in your area whom you can
take the skull to. (If you promise to come back here and let me know
what you find out. :-) ) Either way, we'll get you an answer.
On a side note, yesterday, the kids in the neighborhood brought me a
beautiful beaver skull they found on the beach. I spent several hours
cleaning it up, bleaching it, and gluing the broken parts back
together. Today it looks clean enough their mother might actually let
it into her house. If not, it will be a nice addition to my
collection.
I'll be back in touch --
-K~
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Request for Question Clarification by
knowledge_seeker-ga
on
02 Jul 2003 17:17 PDT
hey Ken,
I've found a really good match on the skull, and it's certainly an
animal that makes sense in terms of where you found it -- except for
one problem: the size is all wrong.
Can you confirm for me the maximum height and width in this view ...
http://www.albany.edu/~kb1999/whatsthis/img/(5).jpg
Thanks -
-K~
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Request for Question Clarification by
knowledge_seeker-ga
on
04 Jul 2003 08:51 PDT
Alright Ken,
I think we should wrap this up by doing a couple of different things
here --
First, I'll give you the links to what I think may be the answer, with
suitable caveats regarding the size issue. Then I'll provide you with
links to some of my other sources so you can do your own online search
and comparisons. Finally, I'll give you some leads to some people who
may be able to help you further, either in person or by email.
The closest match I could find that resembled the parts of your skull
that were easily discerned from your photos and that were not damaged
is the skull of a ground hog -- , aka woodchuck, marmot, whistle pig.
The two best photos to compare are your posterior view and inferior
view. Compare:
Ground Hog – posterior [x-lg image, you may have to scroll to see it]
http://1kai.dokkyomed.ac.jp/mammal/images/large/marmota/2328P.jpg
Your skull – posterior
http://www.albany.edu/~kb1999/whatsthis/img/(5).jpg
Ground Hog – inferior [x-large image]
http://1kai.dokkyomed.ac.jp/mammal/images/large/marmota/2328I.jpg
Your skull – inferior – rotated
http://www.hostcorps.com/imagehost/u/researchers/KS/UnknskullInf.jpg
My settling on the ground hog skull was based on overall shape
similarities, location and number of foramen (holes), and the habitat
of groundhogs in relation to where you found the skull.
The problem here, as I mentioned before, is that the ground hog skull
is a good deal smaller than what you have indicated. According to all
of the sources I've read, the maximum breadth of the ground hog skull
(as viewed in your image #5) would be only be 40-45mm across and 40 mm
in height (including the bottom jaw). You have measured 4.5 inches
across and 3" top-to-bottom, excluding the bottom jaw.
Ground Hog skull – data and photos
http://1kai.dokkyomed.ac.jp/mammal/en/species/marmota_monax.html
So, unless you have used inches where you meant centimeters, the skull
section you are holding is about softball size and is from an animal
of much larger proportion, something more dog or sheep sized.
Here are some skulls that fall into your measurement range:
They are measured in L x W x H. Note that the length of yours cannot
be measured so that number will be meaningless.
Coyote 20cm x 10cm x 8cm
Pronghorn (Antelope) 21cm x 10cm x 9cm
Goat (Domestic) 22cm x 11cm x 11cm
Peccary (Javelina) 23cm x 11cm x 15cm
Sheep 23cm x 12cm x 13cm
Cougar (Puma or Mtn. Lion) 23cm x 15cm x 12cm
Deer (Sika) 24cm x 11cm x 12cm
Antelope 28cm x 12cm x 14cm
Llama 28cm x 13.5cm x 14cm
Deer (White-tailed) 29cm x 12cm x 13cm
Deer (Mule) 29cm x 12cm x 13cm
MAMMAL SKULLS SIZE COMPARISONS
http://www.d91.k12.id.us/www/skyline/teachers/robertsd/sksize1.htm
However, I can find nothing in that size range that even approaches
the anatomical structure of your skull. If you go to this site, you
can compare the structures of those skulls falling into your size
range --
Alphabetical Index of Mammalian Crania Archive
http://1kai.dokkyomed.ac.jp/mammal/en/index_eng.html
So, that's where that stands.
On Monday I sent an email to Roland Kays, Ph.D., the Curator of
Mammals at the New York State Museum in Albany. If anyone can solve
this mystery, it will be him. I included a link to your question and
the link to your website where your pictures are.
I asked him if he could ID the skull either via the pictures or in
person. And also asked him to provide us with names of other people if
he could not help us. So far I have not heard back from him, but you
may want to give him a call.
His contact information is here:
NY State Museum – Roland W. Kays
http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/WildSci/roland.html
MAMMALS – ROLAND W KAYS
http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/7343.html
Meanwhile, I don't know where you are located, but what I would
recommend you do is research your nearest University and find a
professor of Mammalogy to help you. Mammalogists use skulls to ID
animals all the time. Even my most basic sophomore mammalogy course
centered on being able to identify the skulls of all of the orders of
mammals worldwide, and every species native to Colorado. Anyone with
any experience in mammalogy should be able to quickly ID that skull.
So, that's all from me. I'm disappointed I couldn't be more definitive
for you, but my hope is that someone else can.
If I hear back from Dr. Kays, I'll let you know, and I do hope that if
you get an answer, you'll come back and let me know what it is.
Curiosity has gotten the best of me here.
I don't know how you want to deal with this non-answer. Let me know if
you'd like me to put anything in the answer space. If nothing else,
this has been quite the adventure!
Thanks for an interesting search. I really have enjoyed it!
-K~
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Clarification of Question by
kbarclay-ga
on
05 Jul 2003 17:26 PDT
Thank you for all of the leads you've developed and I appreciate the
resources you introduced. I'll try to contact Mr. Kayes at the State
Museum (I live very close). I'll post the answer when I get it.
Thanks again.
-Ken
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Request for Question Clarification by
pinkfreud-ga
on
05 Jul 2003 20:50 PDT
Hello, Ken.
As a colleague of knowledge_seeker who has a keen interest in animals,
I've been following this question with quite a bit of interest. What a
lot of thought and research has led to this point!
Since knowledge_seeker has labored tirelessly on this for over a week,
it would be a very nice gesture on your part to ask that she post her
findings as an official answer to your question. Otherwise she will
receive not a cent for all her hard work (Researchers are not
compensated for clarification exchanges, even if, as in this case,
they are detailed and lengthy).
Best regards,
pinkfreud (friend of 'K')
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Request for Question Clarification by
knowledge_seeker-ga
on
07 Jul 2003 07:14 PDT
Hey Ken!
Check this out! I just got an email from Josheph Bopp at the NY State Museum.
He says:
The skull does appear to be a woodchuck, but without it in front of me
it is difficult to be certain. If the person wants to they can send it
to me and I will identify it for them.
Joe Bopp
Joseph Bopp
Collections Manager
Birds and Mammals
New York State Museum
3140 Cultural Education Center
Albany, NY 12230
518-486-2005
fax 518-486-2034
jbopp@mail.nysed.gov
So, will you accept this as an official answer to your question?
-K~
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