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Subject:
Spam "Remove" Opt-outs - Do they really work?
Category: Computers Asked by: dysan99-ga List Price: $10.00 |
Posted:
31 Jul 2003 03:32 PDT
Expires: 30 Aug 2003 03:32 PDT Question ID: 237275 |
In common with the majority of email users, I receive a considerable amount of daily spam. Most of the spam I receive has a remove html tag on the bottom of the email which supposedly enables you to remove yourself from a mailing list. From what I have picked up generally it is considered a no-no to click on one of these remove links and try and remove yourself as the spammers then know that there is a 'live' address - resulting in more spam. However, I have yet to hear of any concrete evidence other than the natural assumption that to reply to any of these spammers would range from dumb to lunacy. Perhaps I'm just too naive ;-) My question is whether this is really true, and whether there are any reports of people actually trying this out and getting removed, or alternatively getting inundated as a result. Although I do not think for a second these spammers (porn/viagra/low mortgage rates/health/diet etc.) have one reasonable bone in their bodies, I do not want to just ignore the problem if in fact I might be able to remove myself. |
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Subject:
Re: Spam "Remove" Opt-outs - Do they really work?
Answered By: politicalguru-ga on 31 Jul 2003 07:04 PDT Rated: |
Dear dysan99, Yes, there is some numerical "proof" to the fact. My fellow Researcher Read-2-Live once brought Phil Bradley's research to my attention. Bradley wanted to check what the sources of spam are. He registered himself with several email addresses, using in each another "spam attracting" technique: using the opt-out options, joining or participating in discussion groups, putting the address on a web page, putting it on Hotmail's "White Pages". The result is amazing. If the 8 different emails he grounded, the one that "opted out" (and was never subscribed on the spam list on the first place) got by far the most (Read Bradley's experiment at "The Spam Experiment" <http://www.philb.com/spamex.htm>). While Bradley's conclusions are not scientifically (you could always claim that this case is particular to this opt-out list), it leaves in my opinion little doubt n the affectivity of opt-outs. The Centre for Democracy & Technology conducted a similar, more controlled and more "scientific", experiment. Their findings are different: they found that most of the spam arrives from addresses advertised in public, and that most opt-out services respect this request. However, their definition of an opt out service was different than the one Bradley used: they signed to news services, and then opted out - not tried to opt-out of spam they did not receive in the first place (The Centre For Democracy & Technology, "Why Am I Getting All This Spam? Unsolicited Commercial E-mail Research Six Month Report" <http://www.cdt.org/speech/spam/030319spamreport.shtml>). However, there are some supportive evidences that it is not that dangerous. Matt Lake of CNet performed a similar experiment. He claims, that most spam opt-out links *that were not broken or crooked in some way (see Hammer's comment)* did, in fact, unsubscribe him (See: Matt Lake, "Opt-out attempts" CNet, http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3534_7-5020441-5.html?legacy=cnet&tag=st.mig.3227888-8-6602372-1.txt.3227888-8-6602372-5). Similar opt-out experiment was conducted in this site, "Opt-out 'domain name' websites" http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~gcaselton/spam/opt-out_domains.html - please note, that one cannot know how many similar emails arrive from seemingly different sources, and thus a "success" is declared although none was really achieved. Also note, that on the looks of it, the receiver did not do "Full Header" research, or a "Who is" research on the spammer's details. In July 2002, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) announced that "In April, the FTC warned 77 online marketers to discontinue their bogus unsubscribe links or face possible legal action." (Source: FTC, "Putting a Lid on Deceptive Spam" http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/features/spam.htm). In a research they conducted in April 2002, they found that two-thirds of the "remove" links or emails were invalid. However, of the remaining third, there were surprisingly positive results in removing their address from their list (Source: Joanna Glasner, "No Subscription for Spam Relief" Wired News, http://www.wired.com/news/ebiz/0,1272,51517,00.html). And what about those who do end up in real sites, with an "opt out" possibility? This is what happened to Michael Rudas, who was directed to a harvesting page (by mistake): http://www.mdlug.org/archives/mdlug/msg16599.html a good point that is mentioned in this thread, is that even if they are claiming that they remove you from their list, it says nowhere that they oblige not to give your name to another list. To sum up, although the evidences are inconclusive, it seems that usually you'll get a "dead" page of some sort, and that there is a serious chance of getting more spam, or being harvested, if you actually arrive to a valid page. Spam House - Why you shouldn't click the "remove" link: http://www.spamhaus.org/removelists.html I hope this answers your question. I leave here my search strategy for further research: Spam "remove OR unsubscribe OR opt" live Spam "remove OR unsubscribe OR opt" alive "Opt out" spam "remove link" "Opt out" spam harvesting active "Opt out" spam effective "Opt out" spam "Opt out" affectivity spam "Opt out" affectivity "Unsubscribe requests" spam "Bogus remove" spam "Bogus unsubscribe" spam ftc spam valid "unsubscribe OR opt out OR remove" ftc spam "unsubscribe OR opt out OR remove Read 2 Live comment is in "Since spam is an international problem.............." http://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=187342 If you need any further clarifications on this answer, please let me know before you rate it. |
dysan99-ga
rated this answer:
Hi politicalguru, many thanks. I think as much proof as I needed! Thanks also for the useful comments, Hammer and Pseud. Much appreciated. |
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Subject:
Re: Spam "Remove" Opt-outs - Do they really work?
From: hammer-ga on 31 Jul 2003 04:08 PDT |
I decided to test this theory about a year ago. I threw caution to the winds and started religiously clicking every single opt-out link. Here's what I discovered: 1. My spam load has shown a steady increase over the years regardless of what I do, other than changes email addresses. I'm up to over 150 spam per day, every day. 2. At least 30% of the opt-out links were simply broken. 3. Of those not broken, around 50% led me through a maze of confusing forms and ads trying to get to where I could actually opt out. In the process, they set (or tried to set) cookies, and collected all sorts of additional information. In many cases, at the end of the process, the actual opt out submit button was ... BROKEN. 4. Some of the links appeared to opt me out. I'm not sure if they did, because a lot of spam is templates that looks identical but always comes from someone different. That particular spambot opted me out, but passed me on to its five friends. 5. The reputable companies did actually seem to opt me out. Unfortunately, their spam tended to be relatively inoffensive ads for online stores that I shop at anyway. Bottom line is that the opt out links appear to be useless at best and, at worst, increase your spam. - Hammer |
Subject:
Re: Spam "Remove" Opt-outs - Do they really work?
From: pseud-ga on 31 Jul 2003 04:46 PDT |
I believe in the simple thumb rule - If its a site that I had by mistake(or out of sheer stupidity) checked the Subscribe option, then opt-out makes sense. If its also a well known website (inclding the opt out address), then this makes sense. In all other cases, you are only confirming to a spammer, that this email address is valid and inviting more spams. However, this logic works only for those spam engines which use automated tools to generate email ids, as in other cases they anyway know its a genuine email id. |
Subject:
Re: Spam "Remove" Opt-outs - Do they really work?
From: kirkhilles-ga on 04 Aug 2003 09:59 PDT |
The question I have though with this theory is... "why?". I'd certainly agree with this if it cost money to send emails, as spammers would want to minimize the cost and maximize effectiveness of their techniques. The reality is, though, that it costs spammers the same amount whether to send 100 as it does to send a million emails and they can often send up to 1 million emails per hour. Why would they go through the time of developing the technology if they can simply spam everyone? My personal theory is that they include the "unsubscribe" links merely to appear to be appear to be legitimate, to get advertising money with pop-up/banner ads when you click on the link, and to possibly protect themselves from any legal action (at least in their minds). |
Subject:
Re: Spam "Remove" Opt-outs - Do they really work?
From: pnoeric-ga on 05 Aug 2003 12:29 PDT |
I think it's worth mentioning-- a lot of what you think might be spam may not be. For example, most online stores have a checkbox when you create your account to get on their mailing list. Then you start getting info from them with sales, etc-- it LOOKS like spam but technically speaking, it's a mailing list you signed yourself up for and email you asked to receive. Just my 2c, as someone who sends out a double-opt-in newsletter (i.e. you have to ask for my newsletter AND then confirm that you asked in a 2nd step) and STILL gets flagged all the time for (supposedly) sending spam! Ouch! |
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