A brand new install of Windows 98SE (completely reformatted harddisk),
on a FIC VB-601 motherboard w/128mb RAM and ATI Rage IIC video
adapter. I have no other cards (NIC, modem, etc.) installed.
Computer will start to act extremely sluggishly after anywhere from a
few moments to 20+ minutes after starting the desktop, sometimes it
doesn't even boot all the way to the desktop. I can move the mouse but
the mouse arrow moves jerkily and sluggishly. Clicking either mpuse
button doesn't do anything. I CAN hit Ctrl+Alt+Del and bring up the
Close window screen (with only Explorer and Systray in window) but I
can not select or end tasks with the keyboard. I CAN hit another CAD
to reboot. The system works fine in DOS and in Windows Safe Mode. This
happens if I do nothing or I am in a program or utility or Explorer -
it doesn't seem to make any difference.
There are absolutely no programs being loaded in the background.
(Remember this started with a virgin W98SE system). I have flashed the
latest BIOS, applied all hardware and W98se patches, swapped RAM with
another system, played with almost every conceivable setting in the
BIOS, tried disabling IRQ steering, swapped mice and keyboard, even
swapped
monitors. I have gone into MSCONFIG and systematicaly disabled loading
each option (config.sys, win.ini, etc.), I have tried all the various
check boxes in the advanced settings of MSCONFIG. SystemInfo reports
no problems or conflicts, bootlog.txt reports no failures other then
the expected ones (like SDVXD). I have tried disabling the power
management both in BIOS and in Windows. I have checked to make sure
the CPU switches were set correctly on the MB. Nothing has helped the
problem.
A few more facts: when I load the original version of 98 - it works
fine - this behavior is only happening with 98SE. I am seeing this
behavior on two different computers (same VB-601 MB but one's a P3/450
and the other is a P3/500). At the same time I have 5 other computers
running 98SE fine on this same VB-601 MB (2 500mhz and 3 400mhz) - I
even tried copying the BIOS settings from these computers to the
non-working ones.
So, anybody have an answer? |
Request for Question Clarification by
seizer-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 09:20 PST
Do you have any soundcard enabled (either onboard or on a card)?
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pwizard-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 09:25 PST
major4579,
I don't suppose you're using Maxtor hard drives or any other hard
drive where you used the utility disk that came with the drive to set
it up? (sometimes called EZ-BIOS)
-PWizard
|
Clarification of Question by
major4579-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 10:17 PST
No onboard sound card, NO ADDITIONAL CARDS of any type.
No 3rd party utilities to set up drive (only W98's FDISK and Format).
Drive is a Fujitsu 4gb, using FAT32 to make a 2.5gb partition and FAT
to make a 1.5gb partition.
|
Clarification of Question by
major4579-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 10:24 PST
To add further info - the MB is based on the Intel 440BX chipset, with
Slot 1 support for up to 500 mhz cpu, AGP slot (used by ATI Rage IIC),
USB and IR connectors. No onboard NIC, Graphics or Sound. It does have
a SB-LINK PCI Audio Card connector, but no audio card.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
feilong-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 10:33 PST
You said you've tried everything but have you tried checking your
Win98SE CD? You never mentioned it. It may have been damaged. You
know, some scratches can cause corruption to the data from the CD as
it is being transfered to your computer. Based on my experience I find
that Win98SE is a lot better than the original 98 version. Besides,
Microsoft designed all its products to run on every conceivable PC for
as long as the system requirements are met.
Kindly clarify this matter so we can formulate a possible solution. Or
if you find this comment helpful enough, thanks for visiting.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
feilong-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 10:40 PST
Furthermore, I need to verify if your computer hardware --
motherboard, CPU, and peripheral cards are all brand new. I need to
know this so that we can make an exact solution to your problem.
|
Clarification of Question by
major4579-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 10:41 PST
Ther's more histroy to this then I described, but yes I've tried too
different W98SE CDs, and remember the second machine that was
experiencing the same problem? That was installed with a 3rd W98SE CD.
|
Clarification of Question by
major4579-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 10:46 PST
When I said "remember the second machine that was experiencing the
same problem?". Well I meant "is" not "was" as it is still
experiencing it. And to clarify it further the P450 machine is the one
I've been experimenting with. The P500 I haven't touched. Since it
appears to tbe the same problem I figured I would work on one machine.
BTW, the P450 is back happily running the original Windows 98. I can
restore (from a ghost image) or re-install SE anytime if there's a
reason to try, but I couldn't leave the user without a computer for
ever.
|
Clarification of Question by
major4579-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 10:49 PST
As to age of system, these computers were all purchased in late 1999
through early 2000. Everything is original except for some additional
RAM (and I tried removing that - no luck).
|
Request for Question Clarification by
feilong-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 11:07 PST
Ok. Just to tell you, I am currently using an Intel 440bx chipset
motherboard purchased at the same time as yours (1999, running on a
PII350 processor and having several peripheral cards (old and new)
attached to it. I am currently using Win98SE and this computer is
working very well.
You said that you tried applying patches to your SE installation. For
the meantime, don't, especially if you are applying patches meant for
the original 98 version so please be careful. Have you tried disabling
the plug and play OS option (PNP OS) in the BIOS setting? To me, it
seems the problem is caused by hardware incompatibility. We need to
pinpoint it soon so that you can try to disable it using MS config
utility or getting the right driver for that specific hardware.
|
Clarification of Question by
major4579-ga
on
07 Nov 2002 11:21 PST
I only tried to apply patches to 98SE after this problem first
appeared - remember it appeared after a virgin (clean) install. As for
the patches I have only tried the ones recommended for 98SE.
Yes I tried it with BIOS PNP set to NO. I have also tried disabling
each option in MSCONFIG - nothing helped.
The only drivers would be for the ATI Rage (I got the latest)
BIOS (not really a driver) (I got the latest)
Intel chipset (there are none for SE).
The problem was there before and after installing the latest
drivers/BIOS, etc.
It is a little frustrating as I have installed 98SE on many other
computers without a problem like this...
I have to leave for the rest of the day so I won't be able to respond
to any clarifications till this evening.
|
Dear major4579-ga,
Since you said that you have tried doing everything and I have asked
you just about everything that may be related to your problem, it’s
now time to come up with a solution. Although I know that you can
stick with the fine performance of the original 98 it is obvious that
you want to use the 98SE system. We will focus on this and I will give
you a personalized guide to making it work. You must carefully follow
the instructions because I can’t go there and do it for you even if I
want to personally extend my assistance to you so in this case we’ll
be a team and here we go.
As I said before, I suspect a hardware issue regarding your problem as
evidenced by your comment below:
“A few more facts: when I load the original version of 98 - it works
fine - this behavior is only happening with 98SE. I am seeing this
behavior on two different computers (same VB-601 MB but one's a P3/450
and the other is a P3/500). At the same time I have 5 other computers
running 98SE fine on this same VB-601 MB (2 500mhz and 3 400mhz) – I
even tried copying the BIOS settings from these computers to the
non-working ones.”
It is obvious that the processor has nothing to do with this problem
so we can safely count that out. In this case, let’s use the letters
“M” for the 2 malfunctioning unit and “G” for the 3 good units.
Troubleshooting is simply a process of eliminating the possible causes
in order to formulate a solution so here’s what you should do:
a) Make sure that the major internal parts on the M units are the same
as the G units. You only mentioned 3 so this would be the processor,
M-board, V-card, and RAM. In this case, make sure that the amount of
RAM is the same as the G units’. Disregard the monitor, mouse, and
keyboard. What I mean about this is that it is ok if your monitor
these 3 peripheral devices are different from the G units. By the way,
I can assure you that Win98SE works fine on a Fujitsu drive so you can
count that out too. The CD-ROM drive speed or brand is also not an
issue here.
b) Next, make sure that the BIOS version and setting are the same as
that of the G units. If so then try to reformat the M units in the
same way as what you did with the G units using the startup disk or
format.com.
c) Since you set the hardware and BIOS of the M units the same as the
G units it is now time for you to install Win98SE. I expect 2 results:
• If 98SE work perfectly, your problem is solved. You can therefore
easily check the hardware you removed from the M units on the G units.
This way, you can confirm that it is the root of the problem.
• If the problem is still the same, don’t count hardware issue out of
the equation. You can still verify this later. For the meantime
proceed to step D so you can check if there is a software issue.
d) Since it still did not work, you have only one option left to
install 98SE on your M units -- make a ghost image of one of the G
units. I know you know how to do this because you mentioned it
already. You can easily restore (or in this case install) the image to
the M units since the system is the same as the G units. But before
using the ghost image, make sure you reformat the drive just to be on
the safe side. Even though the ghost image will also format the drive
prior to installation. Yes I know this is rather tedious but this is
the only way for you to be certain. Again after doing this, there are
still 2 possible results:
• If the M units finally work at last, congratulations! Your problem
is now solved and you can be certain that the hardware/s you removed
caused the problem. You can also be certain that your 98SE installer
is damaged because you used the ghost image to install 98SE and not
the CD.
• If the problem is still there, it would definitely be a hardware
problem because you already perfectly copied the G units both in
hardware and software setting. It would now be easy for you to find it
because we already have eliminated some possible causes.
Although I believe you already searched MSN for answers regarding your
problem, I would still like to give you this link regarding Win98SE
because there might be some other things here that may be of help to
you. You may have to copy and paste this one to the address bar.
http://search.msn.com/results.asp?q=troubleshooting+win98se&origq=win98se&RS=CHECKED&FORM=SMCRT&v=1&cfg=SMCINITIAL&nosp=0&thr=
I hope we came up with an exact solution to your problem. Try to do
the steps first then make a clarification if you have more queries. I
sincerely wish that your problem will finally be solved. Thank you
very much.
Feilong-ga |
Request for Answer Clarification by
major4579-ga
on
08 Nov 2002 05:57 PST
Feilong-ga,
Thanks for the in-depth answer. I just have a couple of questions.
All the units have 128mb RAM (and I've swapped RAM DIMMs in one of the
"M" units). All the units ("M" & "G") have the same motherboard
VB-601, Rev 1.4. The only piece of hardware that is easily swapped is
the video adapter (I do not know if they are all the same).
Would it be easier to swap the video card first and see if that makes
a difference?
If not, then in your answer, parts (c) and (d) you refer to "hardware
you removed from the M units". But there is no mention of removing any
hardware previously in your answer. What hardware are you refering to?
BTW, I won't be able to get to do this until the weekend (I hope)..
Thanks,
major4579
|
Clarification of Answer by
feilong-ga
on
08 Nov 2002 07:39 PST
Please pardon me for not being too detailed in that aspect. Let’s go
back to part a):
“a) Make sure that the major internal parts on the M units are the
same as the G units. You only mentioned 3 so this would be the
processor, M-board, V-card, and RAM. In this case, make sure that the
amount of RAM is the same as the G units’. Disregard the monitor,
mouse, and keyboard. What I mean about this is that it is ok if your
monitor these 3 peripheral devices are different from the G units. By
the way, I can assure you that Win98SE works fine on a Fujitsu drive
so you can count that out too. The CD-ROM drive speed or brand is also
not an issue here.”
Here I assumed (because I cannot actually see the computer units) that
there may be some other peripheral hardware attached on the M units
that are not found in the G units. Our objective here is to make sure
that the 2 M units are exactly the same as in the G units both in
hardware, and internal settings. My deepest apologies if I overlooked
this one and confused you, I hope you forgive me because I’m
analyzing, sorting, and typing too many details here to make a
customized guide for you.
Okay, I’m going to give you more details on what you should do as you
test your units:
e) “Would it be easier to swap the video card first and see if that
makes a difference?” Yes you should because this is the easiest part.
If the M units function flawlessly after swapping video cards then of
course you know the video card is the problem here. However, It may
not necessarily be defective. You just have to download the latest
driver for that card specifically for 98SE. If 98SE is not specified
in the download, the latest 98 driver specified will do because your
Windows 98SE supports backward compatibility.
f) If in case you followed this direction perfectly and installed the
driver correctly but still the video card is the source of the
problem, it is most likely that the video card is not suitable for
your unit under Win98SE. It doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s
defective since it runs perfectly under the original 98. This is a
clear case of hardware and software incompatibility. Your last option,
if you are 100% sure that the V-card is the problem, is to get another
suitable V-card. Take note, I said “another” not “brand new” which
means that if you can get a used but defect-free, fully functional
V-card that suits your need then by all means go for it.
g) Let’s go back to the condition prior to part e). If you switched
V-cards after installing the ghost image and found out that the V-card
from the M unit works fine on the G unit, you can be sure that another
hardware is causing the problem. In this case it would definitely be
the RAM, since you said earlier that there are no sound cards, and
other devices, the M-boards are all the same and so on. The HD will
not be an issue here so you can count that out too, including the
CD-ROM drive because it functioned correctly as you installed the
ghost image. The chance that the CD drive is the problem is very, very
slim but it can be a possibility. Going back to the issue of RAM,
simply interchange RAM from the G to the M unit. If the M unit works
fine with the G unit’s RAM, then RAM is clearly the problem.
Just to elaborate further because you said you have 128 RAM installed,
I assume that you will do the step one RAM card at a time. What I mean
is if you have 2 pieces of 64’s (total is 128), you will do the
procedure of interchanging the RAM’s one at a time. I hope you
understand what I mean here.
By the way, make sure that all RAM meets the requirement of the
motherboard. A 133mhz RAM works as well as a 100mhz RAM on a 100mhz
M-board. BUT, AND I MEAN BE CAREFUL, a 100mhz RAM on a 133mhz M-board
is not good at all.
I hope I’m clear now. Sorry again if I caused you to be confused. I
hope my advice will finally solve your problem.
Sincerely,
Feilong-ga
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
major4579-ga
on
08 Nov 2002 10:11 PST
Feilong-ga,
This isn't actually a request for clarification just some additional
info for you.
a) I had already stripped everything else out of the "M" unit when I
started having problems - just to eliminate as much as possible out of
the troubleshooting.
e) I had already downloaded and installed the most current driver for
the V-card.
Anyways, I understand now what you are suggesting and will try and
implement it this weekend. Will let you know - Thanks.
|
Clarification of Answer by
feilong-ga
on
08 Nov 2002 17:18 PST
No problem Major and thanks for the info. I hope everything works well.
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
major4579-ga
on
11 Nov 2002 07:22 PST
Feilong-ga
I had some time this weekend to start to implement your suggestions.
First I checked the driver dates and versions for both machines (M &
G), they were the same. I redownloaded and installed the video drivers
again on the M machine just to be sure - no luck.
I then swapped the V-cards: G still worked fine, M still hangs up.
I then swapped the RAM, same results.
I checked the Mother boards and saw that they are slightly different
versions, both are VB-601s but the M has a label "mi410s" and the G
has a label "mi412s".
I then ghosted the G computer and put it on the M computer,
unfortunately I ran out of time so I was only able to run the M
machine for 15 minutes this way and it did not hang up - but the M
machine had previously run 15 minutes or more with hanging so this
isn't definite. I had to put the M machine back to it's original ghost
image for the client to use. I will try and test this further.
The problem with this solution is that it doesn't help me with any of
the other VB-601 machines that need to be setup with 98SE. I need to
know what is causing the problem and how to fix it. I have machines at
a number of different clients and I cannot take a ghost image from one
client and transfer it to another client's computer (these are law
firms...).
So while I will test the ghosted G image on the M, it isn't the end of
this problem.
|
Clarification of Answer by
feilong-ga
on
11 Nov 2002 09:06 PST
Major4579-ga,
You forgot to tell me about this earlier:
“I checked the Mother boards and saw that they are slightly different
versions, both are VB-601s but the M has a label ‘mi410s’ and the G
has a label ‘mi412s’.”
The problem might be caused by incorrect BIOS version or setting. Some
boards, especially series models, may look identical but is different
when it comes to the BIOS. My M-board, Elite P6BX-A+ made by
Elitegroup Computer Systems, is one good example. You will find that
on their BIOS download page
(http://www.ecs.com.tw/download/bios_m.htm) there are two versions of
my M-board model -- P6BX-A+ PCB 1.X
(http://www.ecs.com.tw/download/p6bxap1x.htm) and P6BX-A+ PCB 2.X.
(http://www.ecs.com.tw/download/p6bxap2x.htm).I have the P6BX-A+ PCB
1.X model. However, when you go to the download page, you will find
that there is another sub-category that definitely pertains to the
BIOS – 1MB BIOS and 2MB BIOS. We know very well that getting the wrong
BIOS can result to damaging the system. If this example is the same as
in your case, please follow all the important instructions from the
download site. You also need to have the M-board’s guide so if you
don’t have one, you might be able to download it from the M-board’s
manufacturer.
You can also check if incorrect jumper setting is the cause of the
problem. If the situation calls for you to change the jumper settings,
please be very careful when doing so. Make sure that you follow all
the necessary instructions correctly.
Finally, regarding this matter:
“The problem with this solution is that it doesn't help me with any of
the other VB-601 machines that need to be setup with 98SE. I need to
know what is causing the problem and how to fix it. I have machines at
a number of different clients and I cannot take a ghost image from one
client and transfer it to another client's computer (these are law
firms...)”
With regards to the use of ghost image in your situation, you may copy
and apply one technique I used using ghost image for a small company.
Please take note that I’m not asking you or forcing you to do this but
merely suggesting what I found and proven application for ghost image.
I’m going to share this one to you and the descriptions are as
follows:
1) 7 units – 3 for accounting, 4 for encoding – all the same in parts
and peripherals with no damage parts but was hit by a Trojan horse
virus. The management chose to reformat all the units to ensure a
virus free system.
2) I first removed the virus from all units using Norton Antivirus so
that I can backup all the files without worry. I then made backup
copies of all the files in my service HD, each in its own folder – c1,
c2, etc. I made sure that the backups included all the important files
particularly the company’s email messages – everything important was
copied accordingly.
3) I then reformatted all the HD.
4) I then installed the OS including all programs required by the
accounting dept. on 1 of the 3 units for this dept., made a ghost unit
and installed it on the remaining 2. I then returned the respective
backup copies to the 3 units.
5) After this, I installed the OS including all programs required by
the encoding dept. on 1 of the 4 units for this dept., made a ghost
unit and installed it on the remaining 3. I then returned the
respective backup copies to the 4 units.
6) I was finished in less than a day.
Had it been a case where all units are identical but 1 or 2 units has
1 or more programs that is not found from the rest, I would still have
proceeded using a ghost image and adding the extra programs
afterwards.
Had it been a case where all units are identical but 1 or 2 has 1 or
more programs that should not be there, but is included in the ghost
image, I would still have proceeded using the ghost image and removing
the respective programs afterwards.
Had it been a case where all units are identical but 1 or 2 units has
1 or more devices that is not found from the rest, I would still have
proceeded using a ghost image and installing the drivers afterwards.
I hope you understand what I mean in these examples. If the problem
remains, I don’t have any options left to suggest anymore. I have
given you all the information and possible solutions I know in
response to the information you gave me. If in the end you are not
satisfied and you think I failed to deliver the solution that you are
looking for, I give you my most sincere apologies. You reserve the
right to repost your question/s so others may work on them as well.
You can also ask for a refund or contact answers-support@google.com
regarding this or any queries.
Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
Feilong-ga
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
major4579-ga
on
14 Nov 2002 16:15 PST
Feilong-ga
Sorry to take so long to get back to you but things got a little out
of hand with some other work. Any way, here goes:
As regards to the motherboards and the different labels, I didn't know
this earlier so I couldn't have told you. As far as the motherboard
manufacturer goes, this label and number is never referenced. They do
specify VB-601 Rev 1.4 which both MBs are. I had a chance to look at
the MB of the other M machine I had mentioned and it had a stick on
label with "mi415s", this too was a VB-601 Rev 1.4 MB. Now the BIOS
versions have been MI411 through MI415 so this label may simply be the
BIOS version that was shipped with the MB.
Just to reiterate, I have loaded the same BIOS version on the M as is
on the G, that didn't help so I loaded the latest BIOS version onto
the M still no luck - this was all done previously
I have the original manuals for the motherboard (they are all
identical) and, as I've said I've tried setting all the BIOS settings
the same. The only motherboard jumpers are for setting the CPU clock
speed and they are correct for the CPU (either 400, 450 or 500 mhz).
As far as the Ghost image is concerned - that was my original attempt
to install Win98SE. I had an image with the appropriate applications
all loaded that I had used on other machines (different MBs, video
cards, etc but by forcing a completely new enumeration by W98 it's
always worked), but when I tried it on this one it didn't work. That's
when I started with the clean install from CD.
Finally, the whole purpose of this is to get a new, clean install onto
this machine. I've always found that W98 runs better if every few
years I clean out the crud with a new install (or ghost). But in the
case of this machine I only have the options of (a) leaving the
original W98 that has been on this machine since it was purchased in
1999; or using the ghost image from the G machine that has been on
there since 2000; in either case I'm not getting the fresh install
that I wanted.
Having said that, I also want to say that you've worked very hard on
trying to solve this problem and I do appreciate your effort, but I'm
no better off then I was when we started. If you have other
suggestions I would be happy to hear them, otherwise I will be asking
for a refund.
Thanks,
major4579
|
Clarification of Answer by
feilong-ga
on
14 Nov 2002 17:18 PST
Major4579-ga,
I guess it's the end of the road for me. I'm sorry for failing to
provide you with a positive answer. As I've already implied, I tried
my best to help you with your problem. It's time for me to accept
defeat and pass on this opportunity for other researchers to answer.
You have all the right for a refund which you can do by contacting
answers-support@google.com. You can repost your question anytime you
want. Again I give you my most sincere apologies. Thank you very much
for using Google Answers and I hope this will not be your last.
Sincerely,
Feilong-ga
|
