Google Answers Logo
View Question
 
Q: Count Putiatin and Prince Putiatin ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   0 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Count Putiatin and Prince Putiatin
Category: Reference, Education and News > General Reference
Asked by: wolvies-ga
List Price: $7.00
Posted: 07 Nov 2002 23:21 PST
Expires: 07 Dec 2002 23:21 PST
Question ID: 102513
What relation were the Prince Putiatin's (sometimes spelt Putyatin) of
the First World War era to Count Putiatin who was a major diplomat in
the Far East in the 1850s and who commanded Russian naval forces there
in the Crimean War ? Had there been an elevation of nobility ?
Answer  
Subject: Re: Count Putiatin and Prince Putiatin
Answered By: leli-ga on 08 Nov 2002 04:04 PST
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
Hello wolvies

Thanks for your question - I enjoyed tracking down the information you
requested.

The short answer is that the Count and the Princes were not related.
Luckily for us there is one expert on the Russian nobility, T.F.
Boettger, who has published his 'Register of the Titled Families and
Persons of the Russian Empire' on the net.

He explains that the Count and the Princes have no ancestors in
common:

"It should also be remembered - especially with regard to princely
families - that in almost all cases there exist untitled noble and/or
non-noble families who bear the same surname but who are in no way
related to their titled homonym. For example, the nobles Putiatin (one
of whom later received the title of count) do not share a common
ancestry with the Princes Putiatin."

This is from his reference to the ancestry of the Princes:

"PUTIATIN
..Prince Ivan Semenovich Drutskii surnamed "Putiata" ... His sons bore
the surname "Putiatich" (Putiatycz) and from his younger son Ivan
Ivanovich descend the Princes Putiatin proper.
Sources: ANR, KLR, NdR, TN"

The title of Prince clearly goes back a long way. The last French
Ambassador to the Russian Court had this to say about Prince Sergei's
ancestry:

"Prince Putiatin is not only an expert in history, archæology and the
science of heraldry, but also belongs to one of the oldest families in
Russia. In his veins he has nothing but Russian blood, dating back to
the tenth century, for he is a descendant of the line of Rurik,
through his ancestor Ivan Seinenovitch, voïvode of Lithuania in 1430,
who was himself descended from St. Vladimir, through Michael
Romanovitch, Prince of Drutzk in the thirteenth century."

diary entry for Dec 24 1916 in:
An Ambassador's Memoirs, by Maurice Paléologue, translated by F. A.
Holt, O.B.E.  published New York (1925)
http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/memoir/FrAmbRus/pal3-04.htm"

Boettger also provides the only explanation I have found of how
Admiral Putiatin became a count. His title was granted by the Czar in
1855, which event Boettger abbreviates as 'IU', Imperial Ukase, or
"ukase of His Imperial Majesty". It appears that the title died with
one of his descendants in 1909, since the Admiral himself died in
1883.

"PUTIATIN 
Russian Empire: (IU) 6 Dec. 1855 for Evfimii Vasil'evich Putiatin.
Extinct 10 Mar. 1909.
Sources: NdR, STRL, TN, TRRI I"



REFERENCES

Here are the relevant pages on Boettger's website:

Boettger on Princes
http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/russian/princes.htm

Boettger on Counts
http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/russian/counts.htm

Boettger's notes on abbreviations and the quote about the two Putiatin
families being unrelated (scroll down to 'homonyms')
http://www.geocities.com/~tfboettger/russian/abb.htm


These are the sources he used for his research:

ANR = Emerin (Roman Ivanovich). Annuarie de la noblesse de Russie, 3
vols. St. Petersburg, 1889, 1892, 1900. [Partial genealogies of noble
families of the Russian Empire, 18th-19th century; 1889 has only the
princely families; 1892 includes some comital, baronial, and untitled
families; 1900 has numerous foreign noble families that settled in
Russia]

KLR = Wolff (Józef). Kniaziowie Litewsko-Ruscy od konca czternastego
wieku. Warsaw, 1994 (1895). [Complete and partial genealogies of the
Lithuano-Russian princes to the end of the 15th century]

NdR = Ikonnikov (Nikolai Flegontovich). La noblesse de Russie, copie
des livres généalogiques de l'union de la noblesse russe, constituée
d'après les actes et les documents existants, et complétés par le
concours dévoué des nobles russes, 50 vols. Paris, 1933-1966.
[Complete genealogies of noble families of the Russian Empire to the
mid 20th century; only 50 sets ever printed]

STRL = Heraldry Department of the Ruling Senate. Spiski titulovannym
rodam i litsam Rossiiskoi Imperii. St. Petersburg, 1892. [List of the
titled families and persons of the Russian Empire with full dates of
creation/confirmation of titles together with the names of those
persons granted or confirmed in said titles; more detailed than TN
(see below); a few supplemental pages published in 1894]

TN = Komaroff-Kourloff (Nicolas P.). Titres nobiliaires 862-1917.
Paris, 1985. [List of the titled nobility of the Russian Empire from
862-1917 with information on family origins and titles]

TRRI = Liubimov (Sergei Vasil'evich). Titulovannye rody Rossiiskoi
Imperii, 2 vols. St. Petersburg, 1910. [List of titled families of the
Russian Empire with information on family origins and titles]

Boettger's sources
http://www.geocities.com/tfboettger/russian/sources.ht


The Count's dates of birth and death:
http://hp.iitp.ru/eng/42/4259.htm


And, finally, a definition of 'ukase':

"ukase n.

1 a command or edict, esp. in Russia or the former USSR.
2 an edict of the Russian government.[Russ. ukaz ordinance, edict f.
ukazat' show, decree]"

The Oxford English Reference Dictionary. Oxford University Press
(1996) quoted on xrefer.com
http://www.xrefer.com/entry/431077

As well as thanking you for an interesting question, I should probably
thank Boettger for making his authoritative work available!

I hope this is helpful. Please feel free to get back to me if anything
needs clarification.

Regards - Leli



search notes:

I searched with various terms like 'family' and 'history' and even
went up a blind alley at first since one university website (which I
won't name and shame) calls one of the princes a count. However, this
is the search which led me to the expert:
://www.google.com/search?q=putiatin+OR+putyatin+russian+genealogy&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N
I also used Putiatin + "death" "title granted" "ennobled" "became
count" "ukase" etc.

Clarification of Answer by leli-ga on 08 Nov 2002 04:30 PST
Thank-you very much, wolvies, for the tip and the rating. I'm so glad
you were pleased with the answer.

Clarification of Answer by leli-ga on 15 Nov 2002 06:00 PST
Hello again wolvies

I've been busy and didn't notice your clarification message on the
Ottoman question, even though at one point I did make a start on it.
Sorry we weren't able to help. (It was going to be your toughest yet,
I think.) I hope you'll find these brief notes better than nothing.

LONDON

1909 Moukhtar Pasha Special Envoy to announce Accession of Mohammed V

6/1909 - 1910 Tevfik Pasha Ambassador

1910 - 1914 Tevfik Pasha New Credentials to HM George V

Diplomatic relations Interrupted from 1914 - 1924

2/9/1924 - 31/5/1925 Zekiai Bey

http://www.turkishembassy-london.com/turkish_ambassadors_to_the_uk.htm


WASHINGTON

"In 1914 Ahmet Rüstem Bey was nominated as Ambassador to Washington,
where he started his duty on the 24th of June with the presentation of
his confidence letter to the US President Woodrow Wilson. He was the
first Ottoman Ambassador in Washington...........
His Washington duty as ambassador lasted only three and half months
and Ahmet Rüstem Bey left the USA on the 9th of October in 1914."

http://www.eraren.org/eng/articles/turyazingoztarmproinunistaambahmetr%FCstembey.htm


PARIS

"Turkish ambassador in Paris Rifat Pasha"  (1914) 

http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/EastEurope/TurkeyCentral.html


Good Luck!
wolvies-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars and gave an additional tip of: $3.00
Excellent answer - thank you very much ! It was entirely unexpected as
well, which made it all the more fascinating - I had always assumed
there was a relationship but now I can see why it is never
mentioned...because there never was one ! Thanks again

Comments  
There are no comments at this time.

Important Disclaimer: Answers and comments provided on Google Answers are general information, and are not intended to substitute for informed professional medical, psychiatric, psychological, tax, legal, investment, accounting, or other professional advice. Google does not endorse, and expressly disclaims liability for any product, manufacturer, distributor, service or service provider mentioned or any opinion expressed in answers or comments. Please read carefully the Google Answers Terms of Service.

If you feel that you have found inappropriate content, please let us know by emailing us at answers-support@google.com with the question ID listed above. Thank you.
Search Google Answers for
Google Answers  


Google Home - Answers FAQ - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy