Celtic --
If you keep asking enough questions, we'll link all of this together!
The New York Times on April 7, 1934 has a story about the sudden heart
attack of William F. Sauter in Philadelphia, who died on a mid-town
street. "Mr. Sauter, who was in his 74th year, was president of the
American Engineering Co., having headed the American Windlass Co., of
Providence, Rhode Island before its absorption by the former concern.
He was a founder of G. Rebmann & Co., which firm later united with the
Williamson Brothers Co."
As you know from the previous answer, Williamson and American Windlass
became American Engineering.
If you're related to any or all of the Rebmanns, it might be a good
idea to do a search in the New York Times archives for the family
name. They appear over and over in the Philadelphia area, with these
types of associations:
* the law firm Obermayer, Rebmann, Maxwell & Hippel (of Philadelphia)
* Godfrey Rebmann, who was treasurer of Morse Williams Elevator Co.
-- a concern that was one of 14 elevator manufacturers merged into
Otis Elevator in 1898. Godfrey became a director of Otis Elevator,
which is now part of United Technologies. He was well-known enough to
be listed on several ship sailings to Europe; his son shows up on an
Army promotion list during World War I.
* Frederick Rebmann, who was a senior executive of John Wanamaker
Stores until shortly before his death
* and a Frederick Rebmann was also an engineer for the Henry Heide
candy factory of Philadelphia (I still love their Jujubes!) in 1894.
It's unknown if he was related to the Frederick who worked for
Wanamaker's (or, of course, if he was the same person). In 1894 he
was briefly in the headlines for finding a watchman murdered at the
factory in Philadelphia.
This search was done outside of the Internet, where there are few
Rebmann references to this period. It was primarily done on
Proquest's archive of NY Times copies. The service is available via
many public libraries.
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA |
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
26 Nov 2002 00:00 PST
Indeed we are getting somewhere. Sauter was at the helm of American
Engineering but what is the G. Rebmann £Co that he was a founder of. I
am related to Godrey and G. Ruhland G. Ruhland was on the executive
Committee and did legal work for American Engineering (Obermayer,
Rebmann, Maxwell and Hippel then in was Edmonds obermayer and Rebmann)
but not Frederick, sounds like candies would have been more fun for a
child than elevators..The Sauters mother was a Rebmann. I guess the
next question is what do we know about Morse Williams Elevator Co.
Godfrey was Senior Vice-President at Otis Elevator and it was his
father who had the Rebmann Iron Foundry. I live outside the USA. Is
there away to get to the New York Times or Subscibe to them for
Archival information ? Where I live is very rural lucky to have a
telephone but certainly no contact for N.Y. Times unless I could
travel to a larger city and get access can you get access from abroad?
Many thanks for all your great help. I hope it is alright to put the
Morse William question in here rather than start a new one. How do I
find out if I need to put more money in for YOU to answer the
questions and not start again. Celtic
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
26 Nov 2002 03:32 PST
Celtic --
I'll take the easy things first:
* if you'd like to start another question, you can specify the
researcher in it. Google likes to discourage it, though it's allowed
and you can see it done fairly often. This is a case where it makes
sense, inasmuch as my seeing Sauter & American Engineering rang a HUGE
bell.
* in the U.S., most public libraries have the NY Times available via
the Proquest service. (In the past, the NY Times is the one newspaper
that would have been in almost every library on microfilm.) Having it
on Proquest is amazing because you can do keyword searches and find
things like 'Rebmann' clear back to the 1800s. I don't know what will
be available in a foreign library but I suspect that an American
cultural center would have Proquest and/or NY Times microfilms.
* let me know if precise dates are important, as you may wish to get
copies of some of this material in the future. If you'd like copies,
please also let me know -- often it's possible, though sometimes it's
not.
* the NY Times has traditionally covered Philadelphia-area businesses
and news, as the two cities are close enough that many people take the
train from Philadelphia to work in NY.
* it's indirect, but I can get to my library's NY Times from home --
so don't worry about inconveniencing me.
Now, let me go on to some other things:
* I was bowled over when I saw the death notice on Mr. Sauter and the
link to G. Rebmann & Co. Given the fact that it was acquired around
1900 by Williamson Brothers, I doubt that there's much more in the NY
Times -- though I was certainly stunned when I saw that little item on
Monday!
* all of these details work together. Having the information about
the death in 1897 certainly helped anchor this search.
* I had access to a brief corporate history of Otis Elevator. One of
the ways to track the Morse Williams history would be to get to a
more-detailed history of the company. That will take me back to the
library. My guess is that there are more detailed books on the
corporate history of Otis Elevator; we may have to request them on
inter-library loan. But don't expect a huge amount: it was one of 14
companies consolidated into Otis in 1898.
* other logical places to look:
1. old copies of Philadelphia newspapers. I have no idea what's
on-line.
2. Philadelphia area historical societies; genealogical societies.
3. Wall Street Journal. Though it's widely available on-line today,
as much as I've used it I don't know what's available pre-1965.
Now, some things that weren't in my previous note that you may find
interesting:
* when Godfrey R. died (newspaper notice 5-2-1947) the surivors were
Pauline C. (wife), a daughter, and sons Paul C., Walter and Godfrey R.
* Paul C. Rebmann's promotion as 2nd Lt. in the Infantry Reserve
Corps is in the NY Times on March 5, 1918.
* a Rebmann found Mt. Kilamanjaro during the mid-1800s
* Godfrey F. (working for Otis Elevator) was on the first trip of the
U.S. Manhattan to Europe on Aug. 10, 1932; he also sailed to Europe on
the Rotterdam (Holland-America Lines) on Aug. 16, 1924.
There also are some marriage notices in the NY Times (Elizabeth
Rebmann to Joseph H. Appel, Jr. in 1926), though I didn't pay close
attention to them. I was looking for an ironworks, after all.
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
BTW, being outside the U.S. you may not know that the Henry Heide
Candy Co. still exists. They sell Jujy Fruits and other confections.
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
27 Nov 2002 16:36 PST
Celtic --
I found the bibliography for the brief business history of Otis
Elevator. Again, I have to caution that there may be a lot about
Rebmann and Morse Williams -- or maybe just a very little.
There are three promising articles in Smithsonian, an American History
journal, and a daily newspaper. I'll attempt to get them and let you
know the outcome.
Please let me know if you'd like to acquire them in any case; if you'd
like to know cost ahead of time; if you'd like to change focus.
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
28 Nov 2002 00:26 PST
I would like to acquire the articles but I need to know costs ahead.
Further with Rebmann: On Godfrey Rebmann's large retirement picture
with his work life portrayed there is an address of General Office and
works, Frankford Ave., Wildey and Shackamaxon St. Philadelphia. And
N.Y. Address 108 Liberty St., John Keir Agent. It seems strange that
the N.Y. address could be Otis with an agent name not a company name
but in case it comes up in the articles I thought you should have it.
Also on the same picture is a patent of his we think for 1896 for Otis
Elevator. I don't know whether that would come up in Otis articles. I
now wonder if the address is for Morse Williams Co. may be you have
away of checking out where morse williams was. Happy thanksgiving
Celtic-ga
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
28 Nov 2002 01:00 PST
More on that retirement large photo of Godfrey R. Rebmann. Patent:
Design, G.R. Rebmann, Elevator Guide November 17 1896. Patent number
26 289. From my cousin: The foundry he worked in was Rebmann Iron
Foundry, 13th and Noble it is shown ion the picture but no date. The
Picture of letterhead: Hindley Worm Gears and Hindley Spirals, Morse,
Williams and Company, Sole Manufactures a partial drawing of regular
gear and worm gear shown but no date. Plus a T shaped "Elevator
Guide". Then there is left of his portrait what look to be advertising
flyers for 4 different types of elevators: "Dumb Waiters and Hand
Powered, Belt Powered, Electric Elevators and one that he can not
read. The top one has Morse, Williams &CO with a philadelphia and N.Y.
address.Evidently N.Y. address hard to read but that could be that
other address I gave you. Hand written over the miniature four flyers
is February 1893. Directly below all this is "Otis Elevator Company
March 15 and June 13 1905. On the right half where all the signiatures
are is an Otis watermark where December 26 1941 is written at the
bottom by the Artist. 12/26 was his birthday. That is about all the
info I have at the moment. Many thanks Celtic-ga
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
28 Nov 2002 05:16 PST
Celtic --
A couple of notes here:
1. the NY agent is probably the transfer agent for Otis Elevator
stock, especially noting that Wall Street area address
2. you do realize that with the name and date, it would be an easy
matter to get a copy of his patent from the U.S. Patent Office?
Though the on-line patent search doesn't permit a search by anything
but patent number, it's not that difficult a task to acquire it:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/search-adv.htm
The Thanksgiving weekend shuts down some public services like
libraries, but I'll let you know what I find on this thread of the
search. As you can tell we're at the outer bounds of the Internet but
you can be assured that there's a lot of information about Godfrey and
Otis Elevator sitting in libraries and business archives out there
somewhere!
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
28 Nov 2002 08:29 PST
I had a thought about more information concerning Godfrey R. Rebmann
Birth date 12/26/1861/ I do not know how long the Who's Who Volumes
have been around but he might be in that. His son G. Ruhland Rebmann
Jr. is in it in the 1980-1983 volumes and many others. I have no
access to those volumes over here so perhaps you could check that out
it might tell us something about the Rebmann Iron Foundry and his
various positions in Otis. I will have a try at the patent if I do not
succeed I will let you know. Many thanks Celtic-ga
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
28 Nov 2002 08:51 PST
Celtic --
Please see comment below. I posted it in the wrong area.
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
29 Nov 2002 04:37 PST
Cambridge University emailed me re the N.Y. Times. They can not give
free access to the archives but I could purchase it for $7200 !!.
Needless to say that is a bit out of my league when only working on
the Rebmann family. Yes lets widen the net a bit. Pauline Cooper
Rebmann spouse of Godfrey R. Rebmann - father was Issac Cooper, Mother
was Anna Elizabeth Paul. Evidently the Paul family owned a department
store in Philadelphia. At some point the store was sold to Gimbals but
not the land so the Rebmann family received rent from Gimbals for many
years. My hunch is that the land was part of the Rebmann Real Estate
Company along with perhaps a cemetary in MO. Is there away of tracking
the Gimbals connection? Anna Paul (Born April 11, 1842) parents were
Battle Paul (Born August 23,1809) and Sarah Ann Shaffer (born march 7.
1815). There is also A Henry Shaffer Paul who is a son of Battle and
Sarah Ann Paul (born June 15 1839). I gather the Pauls were as well
known as the Rebmanns but earlier. I do not know when the Who's who
started but if you could look up the Paul's at perhaps turn of the
Century or before we might be able to track that department store.
Many thanks Celtic-ga
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
29 Nov 2002 07:26 PST
Celtic --
I should have access to the Who's Who Friday or Saturday. I'm also
going to check on the three historical articles for background on Otis
Elevator and Morse Williams. (I may be blocked for 24 hours, as
something tells me that our local library is closed on Friday.)
I wasn't aware that Gimble's Department Stores were involved in the
Philadelphia market (John Wanamaker's dominated that area for nearly a
century) but I'll do a quick check.
We're getting a little unfocused here, so after I do these cursory
checks, you'll want to consider posting another question. There are
several researchers in Pennsylvania who may have better access to
local business and historical information. We're digging in many
areas and dates that rely on library archives. Worse yet, they rely
on BUSINESS libraries -- which are more specialized yet.
RE: Proquest NY Times. It's commonly available here via public
library systems. I'm surprised that Cambridge wouldn't have it
available; but then it's a rare U.S. library that would have access to
the Times of London. You may find this page from the American embassy
useful in finding sources for the NY Times:
http://www.usembassy.org.uk/rcpubs.html
By the way, if you're seeking the NY Times in the era that we've been
working, Proquest offers it as "Proquest Historical Newspapers"
electronic service. The files are actually PDF files with images of
the newspaper before 1986 -- but the good news is that you can still
use keyword searches. Since 1986, articles are provided in full-text
forms -- nice but no pictures.
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
29 Nov 2002 08:09 PST
The patent data base that I went to from your answer did not seem to
come up with anything that I could open. The patent number is 26 289.
I do not know whether that blank is a typo or whether that is how it
is written. Should I post the patent question seperately? Many Thanks
Celtic-ga
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
29 Nov 2002 08:19 PST
Celtic --
The patent search only works pre-1975 if you have the number of the
patent. Your patent number sounds way too low for the 1890s.
Edison's lightbulb patent (January, 1880) was 223,898.
You definitely want to post the patent information separately. Make
sure that you're clear on what you're seeking:
-- patent award certificate (the thing that gets hung on the wall)
-- patent summary
-- full patent
I'd be interested in researching the area but don't know what's
available on-line beyond the reference that I provided.
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
29 Nov 2002 13:32 PST
Celtic --
The three articles that I was seeking are from Smithsonian Magazine;
the NY Times and American History Illustrated. The NY Times article,
which I was able to read online, wasn't helpful.
I've put the other two on inter-library loan. They don't cost
anything -- on the other hand it may be weeks before I get a copy or
an indication whether or not they're available.
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
29 Nov 2002 14:46 PST
Celtic --
First, there's a low-cost option for you if you'd like to get Proquest
Historical Newspapers. The New York Genealogical and Biographical
Society, http://www.nygbs.org apparently has the newspapers available
to members. A membership is $60.
Now, as for the Rebmanns and Pauls in the Marquis Who's Who -- we
pretty much struck out.
Who's Who in America, 1932-33, no entry
Who's Who, 1927, no entry
Who Was Who in America, 1897-1942, no entries for Rebmann
The closest thing that we have for Paul is John Rodman Paul, lawyer,
b. Philadelphia Aug. 6, 1852; d. Jan. 27, 1941, married to Elizabeth
Duffield (Neill).
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
30 Nov 2002 02:36 PST
I have been on the patent site again there are 2 hits one for 26 and
0ne for 289 but only a little square shows up with a circle, triangle
and rectangle in it. In going into the help pages it looks like I do
not have the correct attachment to my browser. It needs an adobe or
several other choices . So I will now ask you if indeed you do have
the means to see if you can get from it what the patents are. Many
thanks Celtic-ga
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
30 Nov 2002 04:22 PST
Celtic --
1. I do have Adobe Acrobat (which you'll need to view the Proquest
Historical Newspapers too). I can also probably find a way to get
through the patent database by names -- but it FAR EASIER if I have
patent numbers (and as much information as you have available). We
really should post this is as a separate question.
2. I probably shouldn't post extra ideas for research, as you seem to
have topics galore of your own (that's all said with a big smile) but
take a look at the comment on this question:
https://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=114997
The 1900 Census is Soundexed, making it easier to find Rebmanns,
Pauls, etc. if you wanted to see who was in a household. The 1920
Census shows occupation; the 1930 Census puts a value on the residence
and tells whether or not they own a radio. In any Census search,
provide as much information as possible about location. The priority
is on state, but also county + street address, if possible.
3. I've now checked two of the three articles on Otis Elevator
history, one from the 1989 NY Times and one from Smithsonian Magazine,
1989. No further details on Otis' predecessors. To get substantially
more information, it's probably going to require someone with good
access to a Philadelphia library. Here's what the University of
Pennsylvania library has for newspaper files:
http://www.library.upenn.edu/webbin/staff/paprsort.pl
Recognize that unless there's a good index for these microfilm files
(or unless you have a specific date), it's really a 'needle in the
haystack' search.
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
30 Nov 2002 10:01 PST
I have some answers from Ancertry.com but do not know how to get them
to the right comment place. Perhaps you can help me with Czernek.
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
30 Nov 2002 10:15 PST
Celtic --
Thanks so much for the offer. I actually got the data -- see the
uptondesign.com URL.
It's a great story -- I called my cousin (who's enumerated in that
Census) and about killed the poor guy of a heart attack. I also
posted a picture of his mother at age 2 on my website that he
apparently hadn't ever seen.
Please see the comments on the patents. I'm doing some searching now
and have narrowed down a range of patent numbers -- but we're certain
that the numbers are jumbled somehow.
BIG QUESTION: are you certain of the patent issue date? Could it
possibly be a patent APPLICATION date?
There were about 1,000 patents issued in October and November, 1896
and I'm ornery enough to look every one up on the web today!
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
30 Nov 2002 11:28 PST
Design
-------
G. R. Rebmann
Elevator Guide
No. 26 289 November 17 1896
That is what is on the picture. My cousin feels that the number is a
patent number. The two things above are spaced about that far apart.
Many THanks
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
30 Nov 2002 12:34 PST
Celtic --
I worked for a while on the theory that numbers were missing. Then I
said, "Oh rats -- it's probably a design patent." Justaskscott-ga
figured that out!
Like I said about the Marquis Who's Who -- sometimes we ignore the
obvious.
It's only important that you get the answer!
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
01 Dec 2002 15:01 PST
Celtic --
Three strikes here on the historical articles for Otis Elevator. I'd
looked in Smithsonian Magazine (1989 article), the NY Times (also
1989) and the November, 1987 article in American History Illustrated,
"A Mechanic Gave the World a Lift." No mention of Morse Williams or
really any of the other merged companies.
One final note before we consider this question closed: if you have
access to any information on the Census, it's an easy matter for me to
pull Census records from the National Archives Record Center (NARA)
here (I'm in Seattle). It appears that you have access to
Ancestry.com -- which has things on-line, with a superior index for
1930. The NARA center has superior indexing for MOST of the earlier
years, though sometimes the address or county is necessary to get
anywhere.
If you'd like to pursue any of those records, please let me know in a
separate question. Again, we need to be specific with male family
member's name; who else is likely in the household; address (minimally
by city or county).
A brief question for you, as you seem to have access to Ancestry.com's
index. Do you show an Andrew (Andrzej) Czernek in Pittsburgh, PA
(county = Allegheny) for the 1930 Census?
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
02 Dec 2002 00:23 PST
I would like to pursue some other names now that my cousin has found
some corrections. I will post it seperately. The Design patent he got
into for me we now have a picture of and discription but not what it
was for !! he has gone on to the Otis site and clicked email and
written them to ask what it was for. THen we can find out more about
what Godfrey R. Rebmann did at Otis. The patent he got while at
Williams Morse. More pieces to the jig saw. Many thanks Celtic-ga
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
02 Dec 2002 08:16 PST
Celtic --
Don't be surprised if there's little information about the corporate
history at Otis Elevator. If you're trying to pin down functions that
would know, it will likely be in public relations. Sometimes the best
results occur when the PR department is working with an outside
historian who's taken an interest in the company. But good luck!
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
05 Dec 2002 14:56 PST
Omnivorous can you go back to what you found on the Obit of Godfrey R.
Rebmann whose obit was in I guess the N.Y. Times on 5/2/1947 and see
what it says about him the Otis people were only moderately helpful in
their archives. To our knowledge he was executive vice-president of
Otis. In 1950 in either S&P or Moody that is what it said but now
since Otis is Part of United Technology I think the otis archives are
not important as they were to Otis. I will post a question for
Pauline Cooper Rebmann seperately Thank you Celtic-ga
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
05 Dec 2002 15:06 PST
Celtic:
NY Times obit only says "formerly vice president and a director" of
Otis Elevator. He was a director already in 1897, per the article.
He retired from the job as VP in 1946 (oh that careers lasted that
long these days!)
Widow: Pauline C. Rebmann -- I don't think that there's a NY Times
obit for her. You're probably going to be asking a researcher to do
one of two things:
1. check Philadelphia area libraries for the obit
2. check Philadelphia area cemeteries for headstone listings that
volunteers are have posted online. If you want to try this yourself,
do a Google search of:
genealogy + Philadelphia
I assume that you saw Walter1-GA's post?
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
05 Dec 2002 23:49 PST
I can not find Walter1 where do I look for my cousin's comments. Many
thanks Celtic-ga
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
05 Dec 2002 23:55 PST
Regarding Pauline, She was buried at the Laurel him Cemetery in
Philadelphia. I doubt if there is a headstone as most the family were
cremated and are all in one "hole" so to speak. THanks again Celtic-ga
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
06 Dec 2002 05:06 PST
Celtic --
The question is here:
https://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=119852
Normally when I'm lookin for a researcher, I'll use Google Answers
search and simply type in their full GA name:
"Walter1-GA"
It should list all questions, comments, answers that they've posted.
On the Pauline Cooper Rebmann obit: if you don't have an answer within
24 hours I can virtually guarantee that there's nothing available
on-line. Again, the Philadelphia newspapers don't start their on-line
capabilities before 1978 -- and those are fee access databases. There
are Google Researchers in the Philadelphia area; raising the price and
informing them that it would be a search of the library archives to
get her obit (and Godfrey's in Philadelphia would be MUCH more
detailed than the NY Times) would get you what you seek.
BTW, these on-line copyright issues are difficult. Writing to Google
and telling them to provide your mailing address directly to a
researcher would get you photocopies (I already checked because for
you because I anticipated that it might be necessary to mail an obit
or patent at some point.)
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
Request for Answer Clarification by
celtic-ga
on
06 Dec 2002 06:28 PST
What is the google address to write too? I will do that. I went on to
ancestry.com and checked in with others looking for Rebmann and have
been in touch with someone who is a 3rd cousin.I was able to fill in
the gaps as her relative was my Grandfather's sister. Small world it
is. I will look to see if I have put Philadelphia after Pauline
Cooper. Many thanks about the Library bit. Celtic-ga
|
Clarification of Answer by
omnivorous-ga
on
06 Dec 2002 07:10 PST
Celtic --
I got it backwards. Google's suggestion was: "Probably the best thing
to do is for us to contact the asker and ask their permission to give
you their address."
As I'm in Seattle (where it just rains like in the U.K.), whoever runs
down the Philadelphia Inquirer or Daily News information will almost
certainly be in Pennsylvania. Simply indicate to them in your
question/clarification that they should request a mailing address for
Celtic-GA from Google Answers in order to get a photocopy to you.
Best regards,
Omnivorous-GA
|
