Who was 'Fiery Fred of Falmer'? I have an idea he was a character in
a children's book or comic, but it's possible he could be a racehorse
or mascot or something. I've found a few 'Fiery Freds', but nothing
connected to Falmer(wherever that is!). Could it be 'Furry Fred'? |
Request for Question Clarification by
darrel-ga
on
01 Dec 2002 14:14 PST
Hello--
Could you tell me in what context you've heard "fiery fred of falmer"?
I'm finding a number of fiery freds but want to narrow it down.
Thanks,
darrel-ga
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Clarification of Question by
chris4-ga
on
02 Dec 2002 01:47 PST
Hi darrel-ga,
In a very large, very difficult cryptic crossword. A group of the
clues are based on people and associated places. For example, one of
the easier ones was Mother Theresa of Calcutta, which gave me letters
from each of the names, plus the word 'nun'. Letters from this clue
not only went into the square but also helped to build up several
further clues. Other people were harder, such as Richard of York
giving 'hunchback', and now I seem to be on to obscure characters in
books and politics. This is the hardest one yet.
Because of slight uncertainties with previous answers it's just
possible, as I said, that Fiery should be Furry, but I am 80-90% sure
of Fiery. With Falmer I am 95% sure.
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Request for Question Clarification by
answerfinder-ga
on
02 Dec 2002 03:36 PST
I've tried "fiery fred of" and "furry fred of" without success. I
don't know where you are located but "fiery Fred" Trueman is a well
known former England cricketer. Falmer is a village north of Brighton,
Sussex, UK, but there is no connection between the two. Let us know if
you have any more clues.
answerfinder-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
chris4-ga
on
02 Dec 2002 05:16 PST
Hi answerfinder-ga,
Thanks for the steer about Falmer. Doing some searching of my own
found that a university campus is located there (U. of Sussex). Could
Fred be its students' mascot or something? (football ... ?) I have a
hunch (based purely on the number of clues I have left and the number
of letters I still need) that the word I want will be fairly short
(say 5 or 6 letters rather than a dozen). But it is just a hunch.
'Cricketer' feels a bit long, and, as far as I can see, none of the
letters help with the next clue.
Are there any other places with names similar to Falmer (same number
of letters) which might work? Folmer, Felmar, ... etc.?
|
Request for Question Clarification by
answerfinder-ga
on
02 Dec 2002 06:12 PST
I should have added that Trueman was a bowler. Does this fit in with
the 5-6 letters?
answerfinder-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
saxifrage-ga
on
02 Dec 2002 08:45 PST
Hi, chris4 --
Would you be willing to post the clue, and any of the crossing letters
you're certain of? That way, we can try other place names, etc., that
would fit the pattern.
(I love cryptics, but this one sounds like a real doozy!)
Thanks --
--saxifrage
|
Clarification of Question by
chris4-ga
on
02 Dec 2002 12:05 PST
saxifrage-ga,
If I am absolutely honest, the letters I am absolutely sure of are as follows:
F--RY FRED OF F-LM-R
However I am sure enough of the last space being an E to bet money on it.
Rgds.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
darrel-ga
on
02 Dec 2002 20:14 PST
Chris4--
You're right. This one is a doozy.
Here's what I've been able to find so far. But I have no concrete
answer:
1) "Fiery Fred" Trueman of Yorkshire, England. He's a famous cricket
player.
http://www.thecommentarybox.co.uk/issue12/trueman.htm
2) "Fiery Fred" Stolle of Australia, a world-class tennis player. He
was born in "October 8, 1938, in Hornsby, New South Wales."
http://www.tennisfame.org/enshrinees/fred_stolle.html
3) "Fiery Fred," a famous horse in South Africa.
http://www.suntimes.co.za/2002/06/30/sport/sport/sport01.asp
4) "Fiery Fred," a science fiction writer and "Stargate" player from
the UK.
http://www.shahrazad.net/~sgnovels/dramamp.html
Then I found a couple very intriguing entries that somewhat go along
with the "book" theme you mentioned you had going on in that part of
your puzzle:
5) An interesting reference to "Fiery Fred" a dinosaur in a children's
book web site (whether there's anything to this one or not, I don't
know). http://www.cute-creations.com/fiery_fred.htm
http://www.cute-creations.com/gallery.htm
6) And apparently there was a novel published in 1878 in New York:
"Joseph E. Badger. Gospel George; or, Fiery Fred, the Outlaw. A
Romance of the Gold Mines. March 12, 1878.
Found in: Saturday Journal/Star Journal (various title changes), no.
391; Dime Library, no. 30; Dime Library, no. 1041."
http://www.niulib.niu.edu/badndp/dl-b.html
I followed this lead in particular for quite some time, because it
gave reference to a book. However, you can see from a search I
conducted, this was the only link I could find referencing this novel.
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Joseph+E.+Badger%22+%22fiery+fred%22
This definitely is intriguing.
One more question: Do you know where this puzzle came from? When it
was published? Where?
Thanks,
darrel-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
darrel-ga
on
02 Dec 2002 20:27 PST
Let me also ask whether there's any chance the "F" in what we think is
"Falmer" could actually be an "H."
darrel-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
chris4-ga
on
03 Dec 2002 01:43 PST
darrel-ga,
Thanks for all the work you have done on this. I think we can dismiss
the sportsmen, but I especially like the cute drawing. He looks more
like a dragon to me than a dinosaur, and 'dragon' has about the right
number of letters. The only problem is that the artist says it is a
new drawing, which makes it unlikely the crossword compiler would have
known about it. 'Outlaw' too is promising. The puzzle appears in my
current alumni magazine, but original credit is given to King
William's College, Isle of Man.
If the last word is Halmer instead of Falmer, it means I have to
unpick the last two or three answers. Why do you ask? Would there be
a better lead?
Rgds.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
kutsavi-ga
on
03 Dec 2002 05:56 PST
Hi Chris4,
Something I haven't seen discussed above is the old children's toy
"Furry Fred", which was a sheet of cardboard, covered by plastic, with
a magnet attached to the cardboard. On the cardboard was printed the
bald head of a man, and inside the plastic was a handful of iron
filings. You would take the magnet and move the iron filings until
“Furry Fred” was furry. I was thinking of “filings” or “ferrous” or
something along those lines for the third word, but neither of them
seem to fit. Thought I’d post this along anyway because of the Furry
Fred bit. Good luck!
Kutsavi
|
Request for Question Clarification by
darrel-ga
on
03 Dec 2002 08:00 PST
Hello--
The only reason I asked about the "H" is that I saw reference to a
"Fiery Fred Hilmer." He's a politician in Australia.
http://www.crikey.com.au/business/2002/11/14/20021114westfield2002agm.html
I guess I also am wondering about the "of." Does there have to be an
"of" there? Because if it were "Fiery Fred, the Outlaw," that's a
"the" not an "of."
Hmmmm..
darrel-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
markj-ga
on
04 Dec 2002 11:26 PST
chris4 --
How about this for a lead?
1. Fiery Fred and Folmar are both names of thoroughbred race horses.
2. Fiery Fred was sired by Raise a Native. Go to the following link
and scroll down to "1998" and find "Fiery Fred" in alphabetical order:
Sire Foal Report for Counter Action (SAF) 1991
http://www.aro.co.za/arosirelinePages/COUNTER%20ACTIONSAF1991.htm
3. Folmar is some sort of a cousin or uncle to Fiery Fred in the one
instance diagrammed at the following linked page (Raise a Native is at
the top of displayed tree; Folmar is in the footnote for "2nd dam" as
the sire of Susan's Idol by Susan's Choice, who is near the bottom of
the main tree diagram):
Stable A55
http://www.aro.co.za/NOVEMBERMIXEDSALE2002/LOT33.HTM
4. Given that certain horses have a disproportionate share of stud
"duty" (Raise a Native and Folmar among them), it is virtually certain
that the lineage of the two horses intersect in many other ways.
Would the fact that Folmar is a cousin, or an uncle, or even the
grandfather of Fiery Fred (although I don't have evidence for latter
so far), give you a clue?
If it does, I can either post this as an answer or keep working on
finding relationships between the two horses, as appropriate.
markj-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
chris4-ga
on
06 Dec 2002 23:23 PST
markj,
I think you deserve 10 out of 10 for ingenuity, but I don't think it
quite works. All the horse enthusiasts I know always say 'foal A by
stud B OUT OF mare C', rather than simply 'of'. However I'm sure this
horse is the best lead we have. Would it be possible to check on his
full name as orinially registered? Quite often, at birth, horses are
given long exotic names (like 'Empress Gertrude of Blandings'), but
then later, especially if the horse is successful and the name has to
be used a lot, it gets shortened to something more manageable (like
simply 'Empress'). Could you also check whether there is any place
(even a small town) in South Africa which is called Falmer. If there
is, and especially if it is in horse-raising country, I think I should
be satisfied.
One final thing: are there any lists or indexes of fictional
characters we can look at for Fred?
|
Request for Question Clarification by
darrel-ga
on
07 Dec 2002 06:50 PST
Chris4 and other researchers--
I have checked out the Falmer in Africa idea. Couldn't find any town
named Falmer in Africa.
darrel-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
chris4-ga
on
08 Dec 2002 03:09 PST
Gentlemen (I hope this is not a sexist assumption),
Thank you all for your very hard work, but we seem to be running into
a wall on this. Sadly, and surprisingly, the horse in South Africa is
dropping back, and so I guess we have to look elsewhere. Therefore
(unless someone can find that the nag originally had the longer name
we want), I have three suggestions for further lines of inquiry:
1. Falmer
Perusing my Brewer the other evening, I noticed, intriguingly, that
Falmer in Islamic theology is a word for Hell (it's the special hell
reserved for Chistians (odd, I didn't know that Hell was segregated)).
Anyway, in view of the fact that our friend is known as Fiery Fred,
it might explain how he got his name. If Fred is a demon or devil,
the answer might be one of these two words, or perhaps the animal that
these folks are sometimes represented as. Brewer talks about a goat
or a dragon, - which would bring us back to where we were a few days
ago. The only problem is that I can't find any reference to a demon
or devil called Fred. (Fred does not sound very demonic, but you
never know.) The only names I've found so far that have been used for
the Devil are Nick and Bill. If anyone can establish a link between
Fred and the Devil, I shall be satisfied.
2. Frederica
Surfing through an online library catalogue a few days ago, I came
across a children's book called 'Fiery Frederica' by Christine
Nostlinger (or Noestlinger). Shortening the name to make Fred's sex
ambiguous is entirely in keeping with the sneaky nature of this
crossword, and so I found the entry interesting. However, I can't
find this book, or even a synopsis of it, to determine who or what
Frederica was. Ms Nostlinger's later books (she's written about 40)
seem to have topics evenly divided between naughty little children and
cuddly animals. Again, if anyone can establish a link between
Frederica and Falmer (Falmer may have a completely different meaning
here of course), I shall be satisfied.
3. Dictionary of Fictional Characters
As I said the other day, if we can find a large enough dictionary or
compendium of fictional characters, we may find Fred in there, and
that will solve the problem on the spot.
Members of my family are beginning to complain that I am more
interested in Fred than them, and so I'm raising the bounty on his
head to $30.00, dead or alive (preferably dead).
Best regards.
|
Clarification of Question by
chris4-ga
on
10 Dec 2002 20:24 PST
tehuti,
Thank you for the research on Fiery Frederica. It think that shuts
her out of contention almost certainly. Liked the book cover though.
markj,
Thank you for the excellent tip about the British horse called Fiery
Fred. As you say, he was not very successful, but I found out that he
did have one win apparently at the race-track at Brighton, which is on
the south coast of England, and it turns out that this track, on the
outskirts of Brighton, is very close the village of ---- Falmer ! We
need now to find out whether Falmer was already, or was later made,
part of the horse's name. Even if someone ironically called him Fiery
Fred of Falmer to commemmorate this rare victory (like Kitchener of
Khartoum), it might be enough.
Everyone,
I've just found out that the 'Falmer' are a race of elves in a
currently popular computer game called 'Morrowind'. Does anyone play
this game? Is there an irascible little elf there called Fred?
Regards
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Request for Question Clarification by
darrel-ga
on
10 Dec 2002 20:59 PST
Chris4--
I just spent a substantial amount of time searching the Morrowind web
site. I don't play the game and have never heard of it until now. But
I couldn't find any reference to a Fiery Fred or a Falmer.
The link to the characters I found is
http://www.elderscrolls.com/index.php?url=/codex/races_map.htm&bg=03
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Request for Question Clarification by
darrel-ga
on
10 Dec 2002 21:03 PST
I have now found mention of Falmer in Morrowind. But no Fiery Fred.
You can search a ton of postings players have made and search for
terms. I searched for Falmer and got quite a response. Then I searched
for Fiery Fred. Nothing.
You can search for yourself. The link is
http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/search.php?Cat=
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Request for Question Clarification by
markj-ga
on
11 Dec 2002 05:54 PST
chris4 --
I have found and e-mailed someone who has or had a "close personal
relationship" with the British Fiery Fred. I have asked him about the
possibility that "Falmer" is the horse's surname and for any other
information that could explain why the horse might be described as
"Fiery Fred of Falmer."
Since we Google Researchers are directed not to disclose personal
information, I can't identify the contact. If and when I get a
response, I will post a report, of course.
markj-ga
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Clarification of Question by
chris4-ga
on
22 Dec 2002 08:28 PST
tittering-ga,
A couple of weeks ago, while researching Fred, I also came across the
references to CAB (on a trivia site I think), and found it rather
amusing. There is obviously a British link between CAB and King
William's College. (By the way I don't have any connection with
either organization, or even live in Britain.) It seems the CAB folks
were at the stage I was a couple of weeks earlier, casting around and
hoping for possible mistakes in the clue. What they told me,
effectively, was that the clue was right, because mine was built up
from three or four earlier clues.
Anyway, I think I have now solved the problem. Since all the usual
lines of inquiry had led nowhere, I tried a different tack. My wife,
who used to be a crossword addict suggested that I look at the clue
more like a conventional crossword clue, where the answer is hidden in
the words rather than in the meaning of the words: a follow-on or
anagram or something. I tried the anagram idea, and the solution fell
out in a few minutes (try it). The animal is a main character in a
classic chilren's story. I'm now three clues further on, and the end
is in sight. I might even finish in time to send my solution in
before the deadline, which will be a first.
Regards
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Request for Question Clarification by
markj-ga
on
22 Dec 2002 09:25 PST
Is the answer then "flamer"; that is, Fiery Fred [out] of Falmer =
flamer (an anagram of Falmer)?
markj-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
chris4-ga
on
25 Dec 2002 04:53 PST
markj-ga,
No, the anagram uses all 17 letters (although 'of' remains unscathed
in the middle).
However, is 'Flamer' the name of a character?
Regards
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