what is the best digital camcorder among these - sony dcr-pc9, sony
dcr-trv50, canon elura 20MC, canon optura 100mc.  i'm looking for
small size and good quality color.  i don't care about taking still
pictures.

---

Clarification of Question by bootsy-ga on 08 May 2002 19:57 PDT

some clarification details, feel free to ask more questions.  i am
open to other cameras.  i have tested quite a few and basically have
it narrowed down the this sample set.  i am NOT concerned with the
following

1) taking quality digital stills (i have a separate still camera)
2) effects, transitions, etc (if the camera has them, fine, but if
they don't i can do whatever effects on my computer)

All i want to do is record.  I want good quality color, contrast, etc.
 I know I'd be better off with a 3CCD camera, but i dont' want the
size.  I value compactness.

Thanks!

Hi Bootsy 
 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.epinions.com">http://www.epinions.com</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.epinions.com">www.epinions.com</a>&lt;/a&gt; is the best site to go for to get objective reviews
of almost any items. I have done some comparisons from this site in
terms of the cameras you suggested and hopefully on the features you
desire. I have also provided links to the sites on epinions for each
of the cameras so that you can read the numerous reviews on each
camera. Epinions also contains links to stores which stock the camera
along with prices for each. I have included a price summary for you
for each of the cameras. Please let me know if anything needs further
clarification or there are more specific comparisons you wanted.
 
Sony DCR-PC9 
 
Seems to be an excellent low price camera with great features and
quality indoor and outdoor images. The best camera for its price range
and quite superior to the comparable canon model.
 
Overall rating 89% from 19 Reviewers 
Weight 1.06 lbs 
Size 2-3/8&amp;quot; x 4-1/8&amp;quot; x 3-7/8&amp;quot; 
CCD Resolution (affects picture quality, higher is better) 680,000
pixels
Lux Rating (Picture clarity in low light, lower is better) 5 
Price range: $1600 - $789 
Review Excerpts: 
“The CCD in this camcorder has 680K-pixel resolution and camcorder (in
part due to this fact) provides excellent picture quality, with
well-defined edges and great color reproduction.”
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/content_36355280516">http://www.epinions.com/content_36355280516</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/content_36355280516">http://www.epinions.com/content_36355280516</a>&lt;/a&gt;  
“First of all, I was immediately drawn to this camera because of its
size and weight…camera fit nicely into one of my backpack pockets and
I found myself using the camera a lot during the course of the day.”
“The battery life of the camera is not quite what I expected. Although
I know that using the 2.5 inch LCD will drain the battery quickly, I
was surprised that it only lasted for about an hour…I was also
disappointed with the 10x optical zoom…since the camera is so small,
you kind of give up having a higher optical zoom...”
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/content_59936640644">http://www.epinions.com/content_59936640644</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/content_59936640644">http://www.epinions.com/content_59936640644</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
 
Further Reading: 
Reviews 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/614375_Sony_DCR_PC9_Digital_Camcorder/display_~reviews">http://www.epinions.com/614375_Sony_DCR_PC9_Digital_Camcorder/display_~reviews</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/614375_Sony_DCR_PC9_Digital_Camcorder/display_~reviews">http://www.epinions.com/614375_Sony_DCR_PC9_Digital_Camcorder/display_~reviews</a>&lt;/a&gt;
Prices 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/614375_Sony_DCR_PC9_Digital_Camcorder/display_~latest_prices">http://www.epinions.com/614375_Sony_DCR_PC9_Digital_Camcorder/display_~latest_prices</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/614375_Sony_DCR_PC9_Digital_Camcorder/display_~latest_prices">http://www.epinions.com/614375_Sony_DCR_PC9_Digital_Camcorder/display_~latest_prices</a>&lt;/a&gt;
 
 
Sony DCR-TRV50 
This camera is far superior to the DCR-PC9 however it was only
released into the market this month. There are very few objective
reviews on it and most of the information available is from
electronics sites. The price is also much higher than the DCR-PC9
camera.
Overall rating: Not Available from Epinions – given very high ratings
from sites listed below.
Weight 1 lbs 11oz 
Size 2 7/8 x 3 5/8 x 6 5/8&amp;quot; 
CCD Resolution 1,500,000/970,000 pixels  
Lux Rating 7 (0 with “NightShot”) 
Price Range $1600-$1490 
 
Review excerpts: 
“The DCR-TRV50 model incorporates a 1.5-megapixel CCD imager with 530
lines of horizontal video resolution, which generates stunning video
clarity and crisp definition of even the most subtle colors… Super
NightShotŪ mode enables monochrome video taping in total darkness.
Color mode records full-color video in dimly lit places, providing the
user with the ability to capture true-to-life video of sleeping
babies, birthday candles, nocturnal animals and more.”
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.agoraquest.com/article.php?sid=71">http://www.agoraquest.com/article.php?sid=71</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.agoraquest.com/article.php?sid=71">http://www.agoraquest.com/article.php?sid=71</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
 
“The DCR-TRV50 features exceptional optical and image processing
technology including a Carl Zeiss lens… Sony design engineers have
reputedly created an innovative new feature called Hologram AF which
helps improve image focusing in dark and low contrast conditions.
Press the shutter release button half way and a laser detects the
edges of the subject and focuses on them.”
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.simplydv.co.uk/newsitems/sonytrv50news.html">http://www.simplydv.co.uk/newsitems/sonytrv50news.html</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.simplydv.co.uk/newsitems/sonytrv50news.html">http://www.simplydv.co.uk/newsitems/sonytrv50news.html</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
 
Further Reading: 
Reviews 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.agoraquest.com/article.php?sid=71">http://www.agoraquest.com/article.php?sid=71</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.agoraquest.com/article.php?sid=71">http://www.agoraquest.com/article.php?sid=71</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.simplydv.co.uk/newsitems/sonytrv50news.html">http://www.simplydv.co.uk/newsitems/sonytrv50news.html</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.simplydv.co.uk/newsitems/sonytrv50news.html">http://www.simplydv.co.uk/newsitems/sonytrv50news.html</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
Prices 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://electronics.cnet.com/electronics/resellers/0-6342639-311-8866795.html?tag=st.ce.6342639-1304-8866795.subnav.6342639-311-8866795">http://electronics.cnet.com/electronics/resellers/0-6342639-311-8866795.html?tag=st.ce.6342639-1304-8866795.subnav.6342639-311-8866795</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://electronics.cnet.com/electronics/resellers/0-6342639-311-8866795.html?tag=st.ce.6342639-1304-8866795.subnav.6342639-311-8866795">http://electronics.cnet.com/electronics/resellers/0-6342639-311-8866795.html?tag=st.ce.6342639-1304-8866795.subnav.6342639-311-8866795</a>&lt;/a&gt;
Sony 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.sonystyle.com/digitalimaging/P_Specs_TRV50.shtml">http://www.sonystyle.com/digitalimaging/P_Specs_TRV50.shtml</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.sonystyle.com/digitalimaging/P_Specs_TRV50.shtml">http://www.sonystyle.com/digitalimaging/P_Specs_TRV50.shtml</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
 
 
 
Canon Elura 20MC 
 
This camera is more comparable with the Sony DCR-PC9 with very similar
features and a comparable price, albeit slightly cheaper. Slightly
bulkier than the DCR-PC9 with poorer image quality in low light
(indoors). If price is a major concern, this would be the best camera
to go for, if you are willing to sacrifice another $100 for an
improvement in low light picture quality, stick with the Sony DCR-PC9.
I wouldn’t recommend the camera for indoor use.
 
Rating 100% from 17 Reviewers 
Weight 1.4 lbs 
Size 17/8 x 41/8 x 33/8 in 
CCD Resolution 680,000 
Lux Rating 7.5 
Price $1300 - $629 
 
Review Excerpts: 
“Size. Very compact and sturdy, I can put it in my pan[ts] pockets and
my jacket…Elura fits nicely in my hand(those with big hand may find it
too small)… Picture quality: more than I expect although by no means
excellent. I understand that smaller camera has smaller lens and the
quality will suffer no matter how many resolution lines the
manufacturer says. However Elura2 picture is pretty sharp, the color
is pretty accurate.”
“If I take picture indoors the quality suffers even if I switch to
'night mode'…Battery life: seems to be much shorter than the
manufacturer says”
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/content_16651357828">http://www.epinions.com/content_16651357828</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/content_16651357828">http://www.epinions.com/content_16651357828</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
 
“For point and shoot video it is as easy as it comes. Its day time
performance in automatic mode is very acceptable while its low light
recording is marginal.”
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/elec-review-4FEA-318801F5-39A9BD32-prod5">http://www.epinions.com/elec-review-4FEA-318801F5-39A9BD32-prod5</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/elec-review-4FEA-318801F5-39A9BD32-prod5">http://www.epinions.com/elec-review-4FEA-318801F5-39A9BD32-prod5</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
 
Further Reading: 
Reviews 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/elec-Video-Camcorders-All-Canon_Elura_2/display_~reviews">http://www.epinions.com/elec-Video-Camcorders-All-Canon_Elura_2/display_~reviews</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/elec-Video-Camcorders-All-Canon_Elura_2/display_~reviews">http://www.epinions.com/elec-Video-Camcorders-All-Canon_Elura_2/display_~reviews</a>&lt;/a&gt;
Prices 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/elec-Video-Camcorders-All-Canon_Elura_2/display_~latest_prices">http://www.epinions.com/elec-Video-Camcorders-All-Canon_Elura_2/display_~latest_prices</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/elec-Video-Camcorders-All-Canon_Elura_2/display_~latest_prices">http://www.epinions.com/elec-Video-Camcorders-All-Canon_Elura_2/display_~latest_prices</a>&lt;/a&gt;
 
 
Canon Optura 100mc 
 
This camera appears to be more bulky than Elura and certainly more
bulky than the Sony DCR-PC9. Its picture quality and features are more
comparable to the Sony DCR-TRV50. Most of the reviews I found for this
camera were of a technical nature and didn’t elaborate much on picture
quality and functionality. This camera appears to be inferior to the
Sony TRV50 in terms of functionality, with a comparable picture
quality. Overall this may be the best value for money camera out of
the four you have suggested, if the price I found ($825) is actually
correct. I did my best to verify the price and it does seem
legitimate.
 
Lux Rating 3 
Weight 24 ozs 
Size 2.5 x 5-1/8 x 5-1/8 in 
CCD Resolution 1,300,000 pixels 
Price $1500 - $825(? I feel this price may be wrong but it is
advertised?)
 
 
Review Excerpts: 
“For the midrange set, the Canon Optura 100MC seems to have it all. A
small but comfortable MiniDV camcorder…Overall, the Canon Optura 100MC
shines brightly as a full-featured single-CCD camcorder designed for
consumers who are interested in compact size, excellent video
quality…”
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.techtv.com/products/digitalcameras/jump/0,23009,3372667,00.html">http://www.techtv.com/products/digitalcameras/jump/0,23009,3372667,00.html</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.techtv.com/products/digitalcameras/jump/0,23009,3372667,00.html">http://www.techtv.com/products/digitalcameras/jump/0,23009,3372667,00.html</a>&lt;/a&gt;
 
Reviews 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.dvspot.com/reviews/canon/optura_100mc-review/index.shtml">http://www.dvspot.com/reviews/canon/optura_100mc-review/index.shtml</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.dvspot.com/reviews/canon/optura_100mc-review/index.shtml">http://www.dvspot.com/reviews/canon/optura_100mc-review/index.shtml</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.techtv.com/products/digitalcameras/jump/0,23009,3372667,00.html">http://www.techtv.com/products/digitalcameras/jump/0,23009,3372667,00.html</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.techtv.com/products/digitalcameras/jump/0,23009,3372667,00.html">http://www.techtv.com/products/digitalcameras/jump/0,23009,3372667,00.html</a>&lt;/a&gt;
Prices 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/_Canon_100MC__616521/display_~latest_prices/pp_~1/sort_~price/sort_dir_~asc">http://www.epinions.com/_Canon_100MC__616521/display_~latest_prices/pp_~1/sort_~price/sort_dir_~asc</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.epinions.com/_Canon_100MC__616521/display_~latest_prices/pp_~1/sort_~price/sort_dir_~asc">http://www.epinions.com/_Canon_100MC__616521/display_~latest_prices/pp_~1/sort_~price/sort_dir_~asc</a>&lt;/a&gt;
 
Conclusion 
 
Researching this topic made me want to go and buy a new digital video
camera. (Ours was destroyed when we got our car stuck in a river in
Northern Australia a few years ago…). If money was no object I would
undoubtedly purchase a Sony TRV50. Its features and quality are
unsurpassed by the other cameras you have listed.
 
For value for money the Canon Optura would be the best preference, if
the price of $825 is correct. Otherwise it would be worth the extra
money to go with the Sony TRV50.
 
If money is a concern, the Sony PC9 would be the best camera out of
those you have suggested. It has great features, a good image quality
(in high and low light) and Sony has a great name for producing
quality cameras.
 
The Canon Elura seemed to have good reviews, but the poor image
quality would steer me away from that camera altogether, especially
with the Sony PC9 a very similar price.
 
I hope this information has been useful to you. Good luck and have fun
with your new camera.
 
Molloch  

---

Request for Answer Clarification by bootsy-ga on 09 May 2002 08:31 PDT

MOlloch -  
 
Agreed, your answer is conclusive, but it tells me nothing more than
what I've found online.  While I appreciate you "surfing for me", I'm
looking for someone who has specific hands on knowledge with each of
these cameras.
 
Fyi, if these are the kinds of answers you give, i would recommend
that you also direct people to &lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.cnet.com">http://www.cnet.com</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.cnet.com">www.cnet.com</a>&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.amazon.com">http://www.amazon.com</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.amazon.com">www.amazon.com</a>&lt;/a&gt;, which
often have more comprehensive ratings than epinions on a broader
scale.
 
For camcorder specific things, there are sites like dvspot and
consumerdvreview, etc, that rate camcorders.  I've been through all of
this, and I am really looking for an electronics expert here, not an
internet expert.
 
Thanks though - i really wish you had asked for clarification before
going through the trouble.
 
I think it's fair to assume that someone who is on the google answer
site probably has decent knowledge of the internet, and thus isn't
looking to pay someone to surf for them.  

Just wasn't what i was looking for - see my clarification.  I'm
looking for someone who has specifically tested these cameras side by
side.  i'm not looking for someone who can surf the web for me and
tell me what i can find on epinions.  That I can do myself.

Good answer, just not what i was looking for.  I appreciate the effort
but the answer did not amount to more than surfing the internet for
me.

I am new to digital camera also,

I am prety happy with my 35mm, but I am thing about digital.

Thing which annoys me most is limited capacity and sunching with
p.c. It is a pain to go back to pc and synch after few times. It
easier to change films.

Also what to do for storing images for long time. I do not want to
pay per month for a service and free once dont provide that much
space.

My record is pretty bad with disks and maintaing files on disk,
zipping moving and this and that and it vanishes. Best thing about
35mm is once I click, I have the negative which I can use say 20 year
down the road, when probably I care more  about the pictures.

I would also look into Canon's Optura Pi.  It was recently
discontinued, so you may be able to find it for a bargain.  I believe
it was ditched in favor of the Optura 100MC, which has more
still-photo features (which you don't need). It's a very compact
MiniDV camcorder, which is held horizontally (versus the vertical
100MC).  I have never found the vertically-oriented cameras to be
especially ergonomic.  My favorite feature is the progressive scan
mode -  instead of interlacing the frames, it takes 30 full frames per
second.  The footage comes out much more film-like, adding a certain
level of polish to your video.  Anyway, I would highly recommend going
to an electronics store and trying the cameras out.  Hands-on
experience should be the deciding factor in your purchase.  The Optura
Pi might be harder to find, but is well worth the effort.

Here's Canon's web page about the Optura Pi:
http://www.canondv.com/optura_pi/optura.html

Epinions reviews:
http://www.epinions.com/elec_Camcorders-Digital_CanonMiniDVV-Canon_Optura_Pi

Consumer DV Review:
http://www.consumerdvreviews.com/camcorders/canon_opturapi/

Tech TV Review: (4/5 stars)
http://www.techtv.com/freshgear/firstlook/story/0,23008,2590979,00.html

PC Photo user reviews:
http://www.pcphotoreview.com/Digital+Camcorders/Canon,Optura,Pi/PRD_82957_3100crx.aspx

The answer provided by molloch-ga is outstanding in my opinion.  You
may also wish to read an informed article from PC Magazine. which did
a thorough review of eight digital video cameras in their April 23,
2002 issue including insight into technology that is "coming soon".
This review is available online at:
           http://www.pcmag.com/article/0,2997,s=1644&a=24813,00.asp

They top-rated the Sony DCR VX2000 with the Panasonic PV-DV701 not far
behind.  The assessment criteria are available online at:
           http://www.pcmag.com/camcorders

seedy

A couple of comments from a long-time electronics retailer:

1) I heartily endorse serial-ga's recommendation of trying the
contenders hands-on.  Many times a decision comes down to which one
you like the "feel" of.

2) Pay attention to the low-light performance.  In many stores, staff
will be happy to take you to a corner of the store where lighting can
be reduced, to help you judge low-light performance.  Low-light
performance is crucial for indoor use, and outdoors in variable
lighting conditions.  This has been my biggest complaint with my
(now-old) camcorder.

3) All other things being equal, if picture quality is your goal, go
with whichever camera has the highest optical zoom.  Optical zoom,
like a conventional camera, measures the power of your lens.  Digital
zoom simply blows up the picture you've already got, like zooming in
on a .bmp file on your computer.  Eventually you get a blocky,
pixellated image.  The better your optical zoom, the better your
picture at any "size" (always bearing in mind that some lenses are
just better than others, so still check this hands-on).

4) If you will be using the camera outdoors, test them on a windy day.
 Have the salesperson step outside with you if at all possible, and
check the level of wind noise picked up by the microphone.  This can
be a real irritation if you will be using the camera's audio in your
finished product.

5) Something to remember about the CCD.  Higher resolution is not
always automatically better.  The physical size of the CCD sensor is
more or less consistent from one camera to another, which means the
individual pixels gets smaller.  The smaller the pixel, the less light
it picks up, therefore the more problematic the low-light performance.
 You will also find that colors are less richly saturated.  (This
holds for digital still cameras as well.)

I hope this is helpful!

Thanks for all the comentary.  To be clear, i felt that the original
answer was a VERY GOOD ANSWER, but I blame myself for not being
specific enough (actually, I think google is partly to blame for not
suggesting you indicate whether you would like an answer by an expert
researcher or an expert in the field).  I'd prefer the latter.

Anyway, again, because i can't leave feedback on comments, I wanted to
say that you all have been very helpful.  Hands on is truly the best
way.  The guys at Goodguys know me well - buy return buy return.  they
don't mind because i am a long standing good customer and they know i
will eventually get my camera from them...it might just take me a few
tries.

THANKS AGAIN!

I really feel bad that my answer wasn't what you were after. The
question did seem fairly clear and I felt I answered it as objectively
as possible. When you use GoogleAnswers in future, please try to be
more specific with your question as most of the researchers are just
that - researchers - and will try to answer your question with the
resources avaiable to them. I hope that someone is able to give you a
better answer but I fear that you will be unlikely to find anyone here
with actual "hands on" experience in each of the four cameras.

Best of luck though.
Molloch.

I just recently did similar research and settled on an Optura Pi. My
priorities
were progressive-scan, optical stabilization (not digital), and full
control
over color, iris, etc. My price limit was about $1200.

Some runners-up in my search were:
Canon Elura 2 (too expen? my notes are unclear about what was wrong
with this cam),
Canon GL1 ($$),
Sony TRV900 (funny progressive scan mode, too $$)
Canon Opturn 100mc (no progressive on video-- photos only).

It is very hard to find the Pi. I called 85 local (SF) stores and
found a used
camera with parts missing at one of them. Online sites were sketchy
about
their stock and prices. I settled on onecall.com, which sold a
factory-refurbished camera for about $800.

I'm quite happy with the camera, though I haven't gotten to put it
through
too much testing so far. I'd be happy to investigate particular
details and
abilities for you, though.