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Q: Networking real time jamming for musicians ( No Answer,   2 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Networking real time jamming for musicians
Category: Arts and Entertainment > Music
Asked by: mightymick-ga
List Price: $9.50
Posted: 08 Jan 2003 23:38 PST
Expires: 07 Feb 2003 23:38 PST
Question ID: 139707
Hello,

My friend and I want to be able to jam our instuments together real
time. I live in TN, he lives in NV. We both use pro tools so
instrument input is not a problem. The first obstacle we have found is
that there is a delay in the signal when using any kind of internet
connection which makes jamming together impossible because of timing
issues. I was wondering if there was a way to use something like
netmeeting or something like that to dial a direct connection,
computer to computer via modems. Instead of using the microphone to
broadcast the signal, we would just change it to a line out/pro tools
sound card signal instead of microphone for voice. I know sound
quality would be an issue, but in theroy it seems like it would work
because it would be like a regular telephone call but instead of voice
it would be the computers talking to each other, real time without
delay. Is this a correct assumption? So what im basically asking is
what program can we use to pull this off and if netmeeting can be
used, how do you set that up to dial direct to another computer if it
can be used at all?

Thanks!
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Networking real time jamming for musicians
From: duncan2-ga on 09 Jan 2003 00:46 PST
 
For such a simple question, you've landed smack on the cutting edge of
technology.

Unfortunately, it's unlikely you'll succeed easily in this endeavor. 
Though phone systems may give slightly less delay problems than
internet connections, they experience much of the same delays that you
experience with computer network connections (after all, they're both
fundamentally digital data networks).

While you could certainly dial from one computer 'directly' to the
other (there are standard modem programs that can do this), you'll
then face a number of issues; first, of course, you're paying long
distance for the call.  Second, as you note, the audio quality may not
be really good.  A phone line is fairly slow for digital data--it's ok
for voice, but for clear audio, there's just not enough bandwidth. 
(Higher-bandwidth internet connections such as DSL or Cable would be
better for audio quality.  However, with packetized data crossing the
general internet, the latency will likely be even worse.  Moreover,
the delay in one direction can be greatly different than the delay in
another, which makes synchronized jamming even harder.)

Some flavors of ISDN, used in digital phone-based videoconferencing,
might be able to guarantee a good enough quality of service to
suffice.  ISDN is generally 2 phone lines bonded together for digital
transmission.  (It's expensive though, and not available in many
areas).

As for Microsoft Netmeeting, that's an implementation of H.323, the
international protocol used for video and audio conferencing.  (There
are actually separate codecs used for compressing and transmitting the
video and audio channels.  You'll see audio terms like G.711, vs.
video terms like H.263).  The computers on both ends will also add
slightly to the delay, as they decompress and play the audio streams.

There certainly have been experiments of the sort you are suggesting. 
A quick search turned up this 'Internet concert' from 1998, which,
among other performances, included A violinist in Warsaw, a cellist in
Oslo and a viola player in Helsinki:

http://www.notam02.no/warsaw/program.html
http://www.notam02.no/warsaw/melange.html

But even professional musician collaboration services using DigiDesign
ProTools such as those offered by StudioCats
(http://www.studiocats.com/ ) are not 'real time'.

It's conceivable that if you were doing Midi sequencing, or similar
work with ProTools, that you could get a better connection by dialing
the other computer and then sending only the Midi information (i.e.
don't output analog waveforms that is then compressed and sampled into
G.711).

I'm not very familiar with ProTools, so I'm leaving this as a comment,
just noting that 1) delay is always going to be a factor, you just
want to minimize it as much as possible (including by sending the
minimum amount of data needed), and 2) Netmeeting is unlikely to do
you any favors on a low-bandwidth phone connection.

Hope this helps,
Duncan2-ga
Subject: Re: Networking real time jamming for musicians
From: sublime1-ga on 09 Jan 2003 21:59 PST
 
mightymick...

My experience and information agree with duncan2-ga.
The only successful collaborations I'm aware of are
not real-time jamming. Rather, files are sent via
email or other means, and tracks are laid on top and
returned. Good luck! I hope you find a way.

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