What were the chassis numbers & drivers who drove those chassis for
all March 752 & March 76 Formula 2 racing chassis raced in 1975 and
1976?

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Request for Question Clarification by justaskscott-ga on 23 Feb 2003 09:49 PST

I have found a source that lists all of the drivers of March 752 and
March 762 Formula 2 chassis for 1975 and 1976, the chassis numbers
driven by those drivers for every race in 1976, and the chassis
numbers driven by those drivers for a majority (but not all) of the
races in 1975.  Would this information be sufficient for an answer?

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Clarification of Question by march762-ga on 23 Feb 2003 13:04 PST

Specifically, the real question (s) as follows.
I am associated with March 762/18 purportedly driven by Manfred Surte
for the 1976 season.  This car was supposedly purchased new from
Marcus Hotz, the March importer at the time.  This chassis was later
supposed to have been driven by Marc Surer for some of the 1977
season.  Upon disassembly the number stamped on the rear bulkhead is
752/9, which was one of the March Works Team cars for 1975 (also
driven by Levlere and Tambay and possibly Ribiero).
I am trying to find out what happened to 752/9 and if it was updated
to 1976 specifictions and sold as a 1976 762.  I realize that March
chassis and numbers on a regular basis and that the 1975 chassis were
updated, written off, and replaced several times.
FIA papers show that 762/18 was the Marc Surer car, but FIA papers are
only as good as the input from the person requesting the papers and
are based on information from the applicant.
What happened to 752/9? Where did 762/18 originate?

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Request for Question Clarification by justaskscott-ga on 25 Feb 2003 18:30 PST

The expert on March cars has given me details (event, driver, results,
etc.) of all of the races in which 752/9 and 762/18 were entered. 
(The expert on the races for 1975 and 1976 has independently confirmed
the drivers of 752/9 and 762/18.)  The expert on March cars has also
explained to me why it is possible that 752/9 and 762/18 are the same
car.  (He does not know whether they are the same car, but he explains
how and why they could have been.)

Would this information be sufficient for an answer?

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Clarification of Question by march762-ga on 28 Feb 2003 20:36 PST

Yes, this would be acceptable if there was enough detail.

Hello march762-ga,

My main contact has been Andy Gilberg, of Marchives.com (
http://www.marchives.com/ ).  He has provided me with this list, which
I hope is easy enough to read in text format:

"752-9        
Event       Event Date  Entrant           Driver  Qual Posn  Heat 1 
Heat 2  Finish Posn
Estoril      3/9/75     March Engineering Michel Leclere 1  -  - 
Retired - engine
Thruxton     3/31/75    March Engineering Hans Stuck     8  Puncture 
DNS  Not classified
Hockenheim   4/13/75    March Engineering Hans Stuck     4  3  1  2nd
overall
Nurburgring  4/26-27/75 March Engineering Hans Stuck     5  15 1  8th
overall
Hockenheim   6/8/75     March Engineering Hans Stuck     6  Engine  2 
12th overall
Salzburgring 6/15/75    March Engineering Patrick Tambay 11 15 -  15th
- engine
Rouen        6/29/75    March Engineering Patrick Tambay 2  2  -  2nd
Pergusa      7/27/75    March Engineering Patrick Tambay 1  Crash  DNS
Not classified
Vallelunga   10/12/75   March Engineering Patrick Tambay 2  7  Crash 
Not classified
        
762-18        
Pergusa      7/25/76    Lista Racing Team Marcus Hotz    25 8  7  6th
overall
Estoril      8/8/76     Lista Racing Team Marcus Hotz    -  -  -  Did
not arrive
Hockenheim   9/26/76    Lista Racing Team Marcus Hotz    -  -  -  Did
not qualify"

My other contact, Stefan Örnerdal, has compiled the Formula 2 Register
( http://user.tninet.se/~aiq291w/F2_Index.htm ), where you can view
information on all of the races from 1975 and 1976, as well as other
years.  Mr. Örnerdal independently confirmed Mr. Gilberg's information
on the drivers of 752-9 and 762-18:

"I have checked my sources:

752/9 was driven by Michel Leclere at the first race 1975, at Estoril.
 Then it was passed on to Hans Stuck and for the second part of the
season, the driver was Patrick Tambay.

762/18 seems to have appeared only once, at Hockenheim 1976.09.26 and
the driver was Markus Hotz."

So it does appear that the car could have been purchased from Markus
Hotz, who was the only driver of 762/18.

Andy Gilberg has also informed me:

"According to our best information, the 762 was a uprated 752 with a
revised rear suspension being the primary change.  1975 had parallel
lower links, and 1976 had a reversed lower wishbone.  According to the
best records we have, 25 - 752s were built and 19 - 762s were made. 
It is possible that 752-09 and 762-18 are the same car.  There are
known instances of several March cars having the same chassis number
... usually due to a rebuild of a previously wrecked tub while the
original car got a replacement tub.  The costs of importation taxes
and customs paperwork was an incentive to reuse chassis numbers after
cars were wrecked.  I suppose the opposite might also have happened. 
You could certainly sell a 1976 car for more than a 1975 car in 1976. 
Especially if the only change involved a bit of lower rear suspension
kit and a new number plate.  Obviously, if you have a choice, you'd
want to restore the car you refer to in its 1975 trim."

So perhaps the chassis number was reused after the two crashes in the
car's last two races of 1975.

Incidentally, Mr. Gilberg would be interested in information on the
owners of 752/9 / 762/18.  The owners can fill out an information
request on http://www.marchives.com/ .

- justaskscott-ga


Search terms used on Google:

march "formula 2" 752

[I tried other search terms as well, but this search was sufficient to
pull up both of the web sites that I contacted.]

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Request for Answer Clarification by march762-ga on 02 Mar 2003 07:47 PST

To correct myself, the chassis I am speaking about has a "overstrike"
number from #18 to #17 on the chassis plate.  #17 would have been
Surte's car and #18 would have been Hotz's. Surte changed from a
Chevron to a March (purchased from Hotz) mid-way in the 1976 season
and ran about three events in that chassis. For the Hockenheim event
in June 1975, the March Works Team brought three of the latest chassis
for Tambay (new chassis #12 or 19), Leclere (new chassis #19 or 12)
and Stuck (new chassis #9).  If there  were three "new" chassis for
that event, what happened to the other chassis/monocoques?  Were those
monocoques built into "new" cars/chassis (either 1975 or 1975
chassis)?  Is it possible that 752/9 was updated to 1976
specifications and sold as 762/17 or 762/18 (Hotz/Surte)?  As a
further note in the final race of the 1975 season at Vallelunga, it is
possible that Ribiero was in chassis #9 and possibly wrote off #9 in
the event (my information is not totally reliable in this instance,
but I believe more than 75% accurate).  I am already in posession of
the results/cars/drivers for the 1975 and 1976 seasons, but that
information does not lead to a trail of the car in question.  As
another point of interest, while 752/9 was driven by Leclere, Stuck,
and Tambay (and possibly Ribiero), it was also the March Works Team
spare car, the test and develpment chassis used for suspension
modifications and testing throughout the 1975 season and went through
several transformations regarding chassis wheelbase, track, suspension
geometry, etc.  I also understand and realize that March (for whatever
reasons) did change out chassis number plates and parts on a somewhat
regular basis.  This on confuses the issue and makes it more difficult
to track the history of any of the F2 chassis.  Marcus Hotz was the
German Importer for March and as such could have changed any chassis
plates if he had reason to do so.  It would be helpful to the search
if information about where Hotz got chassis #17/18 and if that chassis
was a "new" chassis from March or an update of a chassis he already
posessed and passed off as a 762.  I hope this helps.

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Clarification of Answer by justaskscott-ga on 02 Mar 2003 08:57 PST

You obviously have a lot of information about these cars; you have
been able to add new information and ask new questions about the cars
after my request for question clarification and after my answer. 
Rather than work through me -- a non-expert on March cars and Formula
2, who will not be able to react personally to the new information --
I suggest that you contact the two people with whom I have
corresponded.  They have the knowledge and resources to help you
directly.  They've been helpful to me; I assume they'd be helpful to
you.  (All I would do is forward your questions to them and then
forward their answers to you -- but why not avoid the middleman?)

Here is their contact information:

"Order information"
Marchives
http://www.marchives.com/OrderInfo_1.htm

"Questionnaire"
Marchives
http://www.marchives.com/Q_1.htm

Formula 2 Register [e-mail address at bottom of page]
http://user.tninet.se/~aiq291w/F2_Index.htm

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Request for Answer Clarification by march762-ga on 02 Mar 2003 11:11 PST

Thanks for all the help

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Clarification of Answer by justaskscott-ga on 02 Mar 2003 12:47 PST

You're welcome.

Under the circumstances, I did get more information than I had. I
don't know if this question has an answer that could be found.  Too
much time has passed and the memories are beginning to wane. 
All-in-all the answer was probably as good as it is going to get.   I
do appreciate the time spent in attempting to research an answer and
am satisfied.

Thanks.

I made an error in my request for clarification: the site I saw did
not list chassis numbers such as "752/9" or "762/18", but rather the
numbers on the cars for each race.

I have contacted that site, as well as another site with expertise on
March cars; perhaps one or both of them will know about 752/9 and
762/18.

Thank you.  It is not an easy question. I do have all the chassis
numbers for 1975 and can track cars to a point.  1976 is a problem in
that chassis were updated from 1975 (easily), and number plates are
only riveted onto the chassis.

Yes.  This would be sufficient if there was enough detail.