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Subject:
Flow Rates & Equilibrium
Category: Science Asked by: pygovian-ga List Price: $5.00 |
Posted:
27 Feb 2003 19:13 PST
Expires: 29 Mar 2003 19:13 PST Question ID: 168135 |
Flow Rates & Equilibrium Starting from an empty tank (with dimension L" x W" x D"), what is the system of equations necessary to determine the diameter of a drain hole (the drain is always open) necessary to fill the tank and maintain a x" water level for an indefinite period of time in a L" x W" x D" cube with a constant inflow rate of r gph? Naturally, part of this solution is to account for the differential pressure across the orifice caused by the height of the water. The answer should include an abstract of the solution; include what steps were taken to get to the solution. | |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: xarqi-ga on 27 Feb 2003 19:51 PST |
Some initial thoughts: The tank begins empty and must retain some water in order to fill to the required constant depth. Therefore, the outflow rate must initially be lower than the inflow rate. As the depth increases, the increasing pressure will increase the outflow rate until at some point it exactly matches the inflow rate, and this point must occur at the required depth. The question therefore reduces to finding the diameter of a drain that will pass r gph with a pressure head of x". Some worries: turbulence and vortex effects, and believe it or not - latitude! I also wonder if the required depth is approached asymptotically, and in fact, never "really" achieved. |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: pygovian-ga on 28 Feb 2003 06:51 PST |
I would agree with your initial assessment, which would appear to be simple enough s.t. the answer would be given by the equation k*sqrt(2*g)*A*sqrt(h)=gph, where k a constant of the medium (water is assumed to be 1), A is the area of the orifice and h is the height of the water. Solving for A, then in turn solving for D, would give the answer for the diameter necessary to balance the inflow and outflow rates. However, part of my solution is also on the fact that time is of the essence. Hence, my problem. I am having difficulty setting up a system of equations (in which I am sure a lot would be, ughh, DE) to determine the exact level of water with relation to an arbitrary time t. As for turbulence, vortex effects, capillary effects (because of a medium in the tank), and other physics/fluid dynamic variables that I cannot think of (Im an econ type, not an engineer!) there are many variables that I would like added to the model. Thus, I have just been looking for a more idealized solution, modeling what I can explain, as I cannot speak intelligently upon the minutiae of the system. Any help in modeling these variables in would be greatly appreciated. |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: pygovian-ga on 28 Feb 2003 07:00 PST |
Good point on approaching the level asymptotically. Inclusion would be good within the model, such that a given epsilon is the maximum deviation allowed from the asymptote. In reality, this should not be a big issue. The error on the water level can be +-5% of the height. |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: pygovian-ga on 28 Feb 2003 07:05 PST |
Another factor involving the minutaie, there will be a carbon filter diffusing the stream at inflow. |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: hfshaw-ga on 28 Feb 2003 11:02 PST |
This is actually pretty easy, because you are only concerned with the steady state situation. That is, the situation that holds when the volume of fluid in the container (and thus the fluid level) does not change (assuming the width and length of the container are fixed -- the container must not deform as it fills), which means that the flow of fluid into the container is exactly balanced by the flow out. There's no need to resort to differential equations to obtain the relationship you are seeking. Outline of solution: 1. Volumetric flow rate out of container (Q.out) = orifice area * fluid velocity through exit orifice (A*v) 2. Volumetric flow rate into container (Q.in) = a constant (r) 3. Use Bernoulli's equation to find fluid exit velocity as a function of fluid height above orifice 4. For the steady state case (i.e. not change in fluid depth as a function of time) Q.out = Q.in = r 5. The equation resulting from step 4 provides the desired relationship between the steady-state fluid depth and orifice area. Complications: The velocity of the exit stream across the diameter of the orifice will not be exactly what is predicted by the Bernoulli equation because of the non-zero viscosity of any real fluid and frictional effects that depend on the details of the geometry of the exit orifice (e.g., shape, thickness of the vessel walls, surface roughness, etc.), the fluid properties (density, viscosity), and the fluid velocity. In practice, the equation for volumetric flow out of the container (Q.out) must include a "fudge factor", usually called the "discharge coefficient" (k; k <= 1) that accounts for this: Q.out = k * A * v. In general you will need to determine k experimentally. If you assume k=1, then the calculations given below will tell you the *minimum* steady-state fluid height that an orifice of a given diameter will sustain. This calculation further assumes that any pressure variations in the fluid due to movement of the fluid within the container will average out to zero along all streamlines from the surface to the orifice. I practice, this means that we don't account for any persistent currents induced by the water stream entering the container. An obvious consequence of this assumption is that the solution will also be grossly incorrect if a vortex (whirlpool) forms at the drain. Solution: Solving Bernoulli's equation for an incompressible, low-viscosity fluid along a streamline that starts at the upper surface of the fluid and ends at the orifice (which assumed to be on the bottom of the container at fluid height h = 0) yields the following equation: rho * g * h(t) + [p.atm(h=0)) - p.atm(h(t))] = 0.5 * rho * v(t)^2 where, v(t) is the ideal fluid velocity out of the exit orifice (which at this stage, we allow to be a function of time) rho is the fluid density h(t) is the fluid height above the orifice (also allowed to be a function of time) g is the acceleration of gravity p.atm(x) is the atmospheric pressure at elevation x If the container is relatively small, we can assume that the atmospheric pressure at the exit orifice and the fluid surface is the same (p.atm(h=0)) = p.atm(h(t))) , so the second term on the left hand side of the above equation vanishes, resulting in: g * h(t) = 0.5 * rho * v(t)^2 v(t) = sqrt[ 2 * g * h(t)] Obviously, this also assumes that the discharge orifice is open to the air, and is not submerged outside the container. Substituting this expression into the expression for the volumetric flow out of the container (Q.out(t) = k * A * v(t), which includes our "fudge factor") yields: Q.out(t) = k * A * sqrt[2 * g * h(t)] where k is the fudge factor A is the area of the orifice At steady state: Q.out = Q.in Q.out = r k * A * sqrt[2 * g * h(ss)] = r where h(ss) is the steady-state water height. Rearranging this gives: A = r/(k*sqrt[2 * g * h(ss)] Your question implied that the orifice is circular with diameter d. For a circular aperture of diamater d: A = pi * d^2/4 pi * d^2/4 = r/(k*sqrt[2 * g * h(ss)] d = sqrt[(4 * r)/(k * pi * sqrt[2 * g * h(ss)])] which says that the diameter of the hole that results in a constant fluid depth h varies as one over the fourth root of h. If you use this to actually calculate something, make sure you use consistent units of measurement and watch out for your unit conversions! Your original question involved flow rates in gallons/hr and fluid heights in inches. Make sure you convert gallons to cubic inches, and express g in appropriate units. |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: hedgie-ga on 28 Feb 2003 19:04 PST |
Bernoulli equation relates change in velocity to change in presure when diameter of a tube changes: http://www.rz.uni-frankfurt.de/~weltner/ That's not quite the case we have here. Easy way to see what you need is to use electrical circuit analogy: You have a voltage (presure head) acting on a resistance (drain + any filters in inlet). You may have to measure the resistance of the filter (or getting that the spec). The resistance of the drain you can aproximate based on the geometry ( diameter, LENGTH of the narrow pipe) and viscosity under few assumptions (laminar flow --i.e. low Reynolds number i.e. all is fairly slow and smooth... see scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/ReynoldsNumber.html |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: racecar-ga on 21 Mar 2003 16:50 PST |
Let's clear up a few misconceptions: 1) Since the inflow rate is specified (r), the filter at the inlet doesn't matter. 2) Though turbulence and vortex effects may well be important, latitude doesn't matter--it takes very careful experiments where large tanks of water are allowed to sit for many hours to become as still as possible to detect the Coriolis effect in laboratory flows. 3) Bernoulli's equation is relevant to this problem. In irrotational, steady flows (we can take this flow as steady even though the depth changes over time, because the change is slow, and though the actual flow may not be irrotational, for a first stab at the problem it's easier to assume it is, particularly since we aren't give information about things like the position of the inflow, drain, etc.) at constant density, Bernoulli's eq. is: 1/2 rho v^2 + p + rho g z = constant everywhere rho is density, v is velocity, p is pressure, g is gravity, and z is height. To say Bernoulli's equation only applies to the very specific case of flow in a pipe with a changing diameter is silliness. Now to answer the question: First we can use Bernoulli's eq. to find the velocity of the water leaving the drain as a function of the height of the water, h: v = sqrt(2gh). In reality, if the drain has sharp edges, the average flow rate at the drain will only be about 62% of this (known from experiment), but if the drain is a horizontal, smoothly tapering 'funnel' the result is correct. Let r be the rate of inflow in cubic meters per second (so the units work out--you can convert from gph; incidentally, everything is assumed measured in SI units), and let R be the radius of the drain. Then we have: dh/dt = r/A - a*v/A (a = drain area = pi*R^2, A = tank area = L*W), or dh/dt = (r - pi*R^2*sqrt(2*g*h))/(L*W). This differential equation is easily solved by separation of variables, and will give you h as a function of time for a given drain radius R. You can use the simple method you already know to pick a value for R, and then use the DE to find out how long it will take for the water level to come within a given distance of its equilibrium height for this value of R. |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: xarqi-ga on 21 Mar 2003 17:31 PST |
So which way *does* the water rotate when it drains on the equator? Just curious. I would guess it is either a random direction that self-reinforces, or the flow is chaotic. |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: racecar-ga on 24 Mar 2003 12:58 PST |
The direction of rotation of the vortex that forms when water is drained depends on the absolute vorticity of the water. Generally in something like a sink in your house, the relative vorticity due to the the motion of the water in the sink, caused by the way the sink was filled, or air currents, or whatever, is orders of magnitude greater than the planetary vorticity. So water in a sink at the equator will drain just the same as water in a sink anywhere else on the planet--the planetary vorticity is effectively zero everywhere, so the fact that it's exactly zero on the equator is irrelevant. |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: xarqi-ga on 24 Mar 2003 13:23 PST |
Hi racecar: So you're suggesting that the notion that water drains with opposite rotation in the N and S hemisphere is either a myth, or a coincidence. Interesting indeed. |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: racecar-ga on 24 Mar 2003 15:03 PST |
Hey xarqi, Yep, a myth. Check out http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_161.html for corroboration. One way to determine if Coriolis effects will be important in a given situation is to consider the Rossby number, Ro = v/(fL), where v is velocity, f is the Coriolis parameter, and L is the lengthscale associated with the system. As long as Ro is much larger than 1, rotation is unimportant. So for something with L~1m, as long as v is large compared to .0001 m/s, you can forget about rotation. |
Subject:
Re: Flow Rates & Equilibrium
From: xarqi-ga on 24 Mar 2003 15:23 PST |
My faith in physics as demonstrated on "The Simpsons" is completely shattered! :-) |
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