hello sparky,

could you find me the origin for "a force to be reckoned with" as it
pertains to a formidable person?  hope this doesn't necessitate a trip
to the library since I owe you gas money from last time.  in no rush
at all for the info.

thanks for your help, dear boy!
GB

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Request for Question Clarification by juggler-ga on 07 Mar 2003 11:53 PST

Hey Granny,

Thanks for the interesting question.

I haven't found anything specific so far, but I'm thinking at this
point that the phrase is a relatively recent construction (i.e., from
the last 300 years or so).

I've checked the OED and the word "force" comes from Latin "fortis"
(meaning strong). The earliest uses in English were in this same sense
(i.e., as an attribute of strength).

On the other hand, the phrase "a force" meaning "an agency, influence,
or source of power" is relatively recent and seems to have derived
from the use of the phrase "a force" in physics (e.g., a physical
force such as gravity). This usage stems from the 1700s or so. This
usage, essentially meaning "a powerful thing," would seem to be what's
happening in "a force to be reckoned with."

Of course, the phrase might originally have had to do with "a force"
meaning "a body of armed men, an army." The OED cites use of "a force"
(then spelled more phonetically as "forss") in the sense of "an army"
as early as 1375. In that case, "a force to be reckoned with" could
also be quite old. On the other hand, while it seems possible that the
phrase originated in this sense (e.g., "the king's army is a force to
be reckoned with"), it would seem that the meaning has changed over
time since we now apply the phrase to a single thing or person instead
of just a group of people.

Anyway, this might take another library trip, but that's okay since I
was thinking about making one soon (maybe Saturday).

Nose is to the grindstone, but not too hard because, as you previously
said, I wouldn't want to end up like Jacko ;-).
Later,
j

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Clarification of Question by badabing-ga on 07 Mar 2003 13:09 PST

please don't make a special trip.  I tend to agree with you about the
evolvement of word and there may not be an answer.  just put this on
your "whenever" list and post it as an answer or I'll take my
yardstick to you.  granny wants to pay you for your time.

To all other Google Answers Researchers, badabing-ga has specifically
requested for juggler-ga. Please let us honor such request.

Juggler, perhaps looking at references to counting the size of an
enemy army might give a lead?  According to my Chambers, the archaic
meanings of reckon are to enumerate or attribute, and it comes from
Old English gerecenian, to explain, and/or German rechnen, to
count/calculate.

dear bunnyangel, thanks so much for looking out for granny. if anyone
other than juggler answered this question, I'd ask for a refund right
quick and urge the Google folks to give that researcher a time-out and
a thump on the head.

I'd assume the first key to researcherdom is knowing how to read. 
sure, you gotta skim tons of stuff looking for just the right info,
but don't skim the freakin' *question*!  as granny understands this
locking situation, it's a race to grab a question that you'd like to
answer.  so a researcher skims a question directed to a specific
researcher and makes a mistake.  it could happen. granny's unsolicited
advice would be for the researcher to then re-read the question ***
three times even *** before starting to work on the answer.  if you
find it's directed at a particular researcher, can't you just *unlock*
it?  easy-peasy-japanesey

dearest tahoot:  I like to direct my etymology questions to juggler
because he seems to like them and is around full-time (or so it
seems).  plus I think he has a girlfriend at the library.  if he'd
like to hand off the answer to you if you've found something specific,
I'm more than comfortable with that.  your answers are always a
delight to read and very complete.  totally up to him.  granny's gotta
admit she has favorites among you researchers but she never knows
who's available.  thanks for taking an interest in my question.

Tehuti's suggestion is quite plausible. And, indeed, "reckon" has been
used to enumerate armed forces.

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

"reckon
15. a. To number, amount to. 
 
  1877 C. M. YONGE Cameos Ser. III. xxx. 301 He marched [them] into
the camp before his own troop, which did not reckon nearly so many."


At this point, it'd be interesting to know whether the phrase "a force
to be reckoned" (minus the "with") was ever common. It's comparatively
rare now.
http://www.googlefight.com/cgi-bin/compare.pl?q1=%22force+to+be+reckoned+with%22&q2=%22force+to+be+reckoned%22+-with&B1=Make+a+fight%21&compare=1&langue=us

The phrase "reckoned with" is apparently rather recent.

From the Oxford English Dictionary:
"reckon...

"11 b. to reckon with: to take into account or consideration; to be
prepared for.
 
  1885 Manch. Exam. 16 June 4/6 A Ministerial crisis..is always a
contingency to be reckoned with. 1896 W. H. HUTTON Phil. Augustus vi.
182 It might seem..as if the Jews were the only dissenters with whom
the king and the church had to reckon. 1902 KIPLING Five Nations
(1903) 63 We reckon not with those Whom the mere Fates ordain. 1945 T.
S. ELIOT What is a Classic? 8 We may say confidently that it [sc. the
definition] must be one which will expressly reckon with him."
 
And, Granny, it only seems like this is my regular gig. ;-)

Dear Granny Badabing

Seeing you post another etymology question reminds me that I had
scribbled some notes on one of your earlier posers. I don't think I'll
get any further with it, so will just offer these musings on "a force
to be reckoned with", henceforth FTBRW, in fact mostly about
"reckoned/reckon with".

I was a bit frustrated with the OED definition of "take into
consideration" or "be prepared for" being linked to the phrase "a
ministerial crisis ..... is always a contingency to be reckoned with".
This didn't seem to explain our current way of using "to be reckoned
with". Surely we now use the "[X] to be reckoned with" phrase to
describe something that doesn't just need to be taken into account,
but must be respected, or at any rate not overlooked, because it has
some kind of power. So that 1885 meaning doesn't seem *quite* in tune
with the contemporary meaning, despite the similarity of the slightly
odd construction "[X] to be reckoned with" (noun, passive infinitive,
preposition).

Another passing thought was that FTBRW struck me as a rather modern
phrase. I couldn't believe it was much used before the twentieth
century - though I wait nervously for someone to prove me wrong.

The earliest use I found with the same sort of feeling as our 2003
understandng of FTBRW was in Henry James:

"I became aware of having Mrs. Grose also, and very formidably, to
reckon with."
"Turn of the Screw" 1897
http://www.online-literature.com/henry_james/turn_screw/20/

The NODE (New Oxford English Dictionary, first pub. 1998) supports my
first point:

"a --- to be reckoned with (or to reckon with) - a thing or person of
considerable importance or ability that is not to be ignored or
underestimated: 'the trade unions were a political force to be
reckoned with'"


Next I thought about how 'to be reckoned with' came to have this
meaning of "not to be ignored or underestimated". This led me to the
older meaning of 'reckon with' as 'settle an account with', which my
Shorter OED traces back to Middle English though I've only got
examples going back to the King James Bible:


Early 17c century
"After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth
with them." Matt. xxv. 19. KJV
http://www.bartleby.com/108/40/25.html


Late 18th century - Cowper
"........... we are held
Accountable, and God, some future day,
Will reckon with us roundly for the abuse
Of what He deems no mean or trivial trust."
http://www.simonova.net/library/1476-3.html


1848 "reckon with", 'settle accounts' but also implying 'confront' -
Charlotte Bronte
"Only you would rather they would do something worse than merely stop
a wagon before you reckon with them."
http://www.classicreader.com/read.php/sid.1/bookid.1735/sec.3/


There's a hint of otherness, of two parties with different interests
in all this account settling. The tallying up can be connected to one
person being more powerful than the other (the religious examples) or
to an actual power struggle (Bronte). So, I can't help speculating
that this meaning somehow merged with the 'taking into consideration'
meaning and led to the FTBRW usage. When NODE says "a thing or person
of considerable importance or ability that is not to be ignored or
underestimated", it's rather close to saying that *if* you don't take
the thing or person into consideration, you risk having an
(unpleasant) account to settle with them. The Bronte and Henry James
examples suggest that perhaps "reckon with" was picking up more and
more of a sense of 'don't overlook this force/powerful person' during
the nineteenth century.

But I am speculating wildly. Sadly, I've found no hard facts on the
introduction or popularisation of FTBRW - but, granny, beware, some
people do not approve of actually using it, even going so far as to
insult it with descriptions like 'stale' or 'clichéd'.

"most exhausted cliché"
http://www3.cerritos.edu/fquaas/resources/cliche.htm

Cliché-o-rama
http://www.io.com/~eighner/writing_course/usage/qaclick.html

The writer's desk
http://www.time.com/time/classroom/article/0,12422,197697,00.html


Google proves that "a force to reckon with" is also popular, with
11,000 hits to FTBRW's 84,000.
Hoped to have inspiration about this, pondered "name to conjure with"
too, which sometimes appears as "name to be conjured with"....odd
syntax?


Extra note: "reckon with" used to have positive connotations, as in
this sonnet by Samuel Daniel (1562-1619):

 "And see how just I reckon with thine eyes:
  Examine well thy beautie with my truth..."
http://www.phil.muni.cz/angl/englishdigit/pavel/reading_poetry/Seminar_3.rtf

or Malcolm in "Macbeth" settling accounts in the sense of rewarding
friendship:

"We shall not spend a large expense of time
Before we reckon with your several loves,
And make us even with you. "

http://www.online-literature.com/shakespeare/macbeth/29/

The SOED gives "think highly of" as an obsolete use of "reckon with".

(The Macbeth quote was another reason I took an interest in this
question. I was sure I could remember a Shakespearean use of "reckon
with" and Google makes it so quick and easy to find it!)

No answer I'm afraid - but I was kept amused mulling it over - so
thanks to you for the question.

Leli

lovliest of Lelis, thank you for posting your brain droppings.  I
appreciate it.  you think quite a bit like granny -- a scary thought,
huh?  I listen to blah, blah, words all day but occasionally a word or
phrase will get stuck in granny's brain drain.  stupid stuff really,
but hey, we all need a hobby.

anyway, my curiosity was piqued on actually who the *first* person to
be reckoned with was ... Charlemagne?  Catherine the Great?  a pope? 
Henry VIII?  Raquel Welch?  I guess it was more a rhetorical question
than anything else, but I was curious what you guys would bring me. 
thanks for your contribution, Queen Leli.

as for cliches, granny tries to steer clear of them, opting for her
own brand of speech.  she's always glad when she finds someone who
understands her.  it's an added bonus if they're also experts at
carpet stain removal.