I am trying to find information about any antiwar protests that
occurred on the Brigham Young University campus in Provo, Utah, **and
involved BYU students** between 1964 and 1973. For this question to be
answered to my satisfaction, I need to be told the date and size of at
least one such protest, along with a link to the information (or a
verifiable reference to a printed publication).  Alternatively, I
would need information from an authoritative source indicating
specifically that there were no such protests (casual comments from
college officials that "our kids don't go for that sort of thing"
don't count, and neither would statements about the BYU policy toward
such protests).

I am looking for the actual answer to this question.  I will reject
any answer that doesn't answer the question or that says the
information can't be found.

Thanks!

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Clarification of Question by wantstoknow-ga on 24 May 2002 06:42 PDT

As an alternative, I would accept convincing evidence (a newspaper
article from that era would do) that a regular faculty member (that
is, not a guest faculty member) was an open opponent of the war during
that time period.  

hi wantstoknow, 
This is what I found to answer your question: 
<a href="http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/centennial/october/outrage.html">http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/centennial/october/outrage.html</a> 

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Request for Answer Clarification by wantstoknow-ga on 30 May 2002 08:33 PDT

How does that article answer the question?  

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Clarification of Answer by googleexpert-ga on 30 May 2002 10:02 PDT

I apologize for giving the wrong link. 
Here is the link that I meant to post: 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://advance.byu.edu/bym/2000sum/pages/palestine4.shtml">http://advance.byu.edu/bym/2000sum/pages/palestine4.shtml</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://advance.byu.edu/bym/2000sum/pages/palestine4.shtml">http://advance.byu.edu/bym/2000sum/pages/palestine4.shtml</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
&amp;quot;considering that 10 to 20 percent of youth took part in other
documented political movements, such as the American Vietnam War
protests &amp;quot;
 
Enrollment Number: 
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://www.uiowa.edu/~ppls/faculty/1960's/home/recruit/page3rec.htm">http://www.uiowa.edu/~ppls/faculty/1960's/home/recruit/page3rec.htm</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://www.uiowa.edu/~ppls/faculty/1960's/home/recruit/page3rec.htm">http://www.uiowa.edu/~ppls/faculty/1960's/home/recruit/page3rec.htm</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
&amp;quot;During Ernest L. Wilkinson's 1951-71 tenure as president of Brigham
Young University in Provo, Utah, student enrollment at this
Mormon-affiliated University increased from 4,500 to 25,000. &amp;quot;  

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Request for Answer Clarification by wantstoknow-ga on 30 May 2002 12:09 PDT

The first new link you gave me says it was Palestinian youth, not BYU
students, who participated in the antiwar protests.  The second new
link you gave to me mentions antiwar protests in connection with
military recruitment, but it doesn't link those protests to BYU.  It
seems to me like you're giving me pages that mention both BYU and
antiwar protests without seeing whether those pages actually answer
the question.  I don't want to be snotty about it, but if you give me
another link to clarify your answer, please make certain it answers
the question.  Thanks!  

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Clarification of Answer by googleexpert-ga on 30 May 2002 14:10 PDT

If you can order this book online, this might be what you are looking
for.
"Thomas Powers, Vietnam: THE WAR AT HOME; VIETNAM AND THE AMERICAN
PEOPLE 1964-1968, 1973 (Boston: G. K. Hall) 1984: 89. "  

The researcher didn't answer the question.  I asked for information
about a specific event that may or may not have happened.  Instead I
received links to pages that matched the researcher's search criteria,
but the pages didn't have information about what I requested.

An extremely unprofessional and sloppy research job.  I was given
three links that appeared were the results of searches, but it
appeared the researcher didn't check to see if the pages that showed
up in his or her search results actually answered the question.  Then
when I indicated that was an inadequate answer, I was given the title
of a book that "might" answer the question, and I specifically had
said that wasn't what I was looking for.

Either BYU has organized a better cover up than the Air Force at Area
51 or the students and instructors didn't take part in any protests of
the war.

I did find this link that mentioned that, "...at Brigham Young
University some professors used class time to discuss the war with
their students. "

http://www.utahhistorytogo.org/vietnam.html

It is impossible to prove a negative. So I can’t prove it, but I’d bet
they kept the protests completely isolated from the campus and none of
the BYU students or faculty that did take part in protests off campus
wore their school colors.

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Request for Answer Clarification by wantstoknow-ga on 08 Jun 2002 21:56 PDT

In my question I very specifically said that if the answer was
negative I would want "information from an authoritative source
indicating specifically that there were no such protests."  An example
of that would be a book (such as on the history of BYU or on the
history of the antiwar movement) or a newspaper article from the time
period.  I need more than your belief that such protests didn't happen
simply because you couldn't find evidence they did.
 
I also would point out that the link you gave in your answer was one I
already responded to in the comments as one that didn't provide the
answer (although it was interesting).
 
If the answer is in the negative (that there were no such protests) I
need something more authoritative.  Can you provide that?  Thanks.  

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Clarification of Answer by wrgiacona-ga on 09 Jun 2002 14:06 PDT

You are well in your rights to reject this answer but it comes down to
one of the following.
 
1.There was student and/or faculty protest of the war at BYU and it
was never recorded anywhere others or I have access to. I’d say this
is the least likely.
2.It was recorded and has been deleted. Also very unlikely. 
3.There wasn’t student and/or faculty protest of the war at BYU and no
one thought that unusual enough to record anywhere others or I have
access to. VERY LIKELY.
 
Sorry, I couldn’t help you further.  

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Request for Answer Clarification by wantstoknow-ga on 10 Jun 2002 07:02 PDT

I have to disagree with your assessment as to what's likely.  I have a
hard time believing that even at a campus such as BYU that there was
was no activity against the war whatsoever.  Although I didn't attend
BYU, I did attend an Evangelical Christian college that was almost as
conservative as BYU, and I opposed the war. There weren't many of us
opposing the war (although, perhaps surprisingly, more faculty members
than students), but we did exist. Indeed, there was social
repercussions for doing so (we were seen as something less than
Christian by some), but we felt we had to follow our consciences.
 
I recently came across this article that might lend some indirect
support to my thesis:
&lt;a href=&quot;<a href="http://fhss.byu.edu/history/faculty/dursteler/nibleyDemocrats.htm">http://fhss.byu.edu/history/faculty/dursteler/nibleyDemocrats.htm</a>&quot;&gt;<a href="http://fhss.byu.edu/history/faculty/dursteler/nibleyDemocrats.htm">http://fhss.byu.edu/history/faculty/dursteler/nibleyDemocrats.htm</a>&lt;/a&gt; 
This article was written by a former Mormon missionary **from one of
the most prominent Mormon families** who campaigned for McGovern in
Provo in 1972.
 
It is also necessary to keep in mind that it was never against church
rules to lawfully oppose the war, and that the church explicitly
stated that it was not a violation of church policy for its members to
apply for conscientious objector status (although they were expected
to obey the law if drafted).  Although there might have been social
pressures not to take a minority political position, I doubt a student
could have been booted out for doing so.
 
That's the end of my rant.  Although I will have to reject the answer
because it didn't meet the clear conditions I established for an
answer, I do appreciate your help.  

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Clarification of Answer by wrgiacona-ga on 11 Jun 2002 18:24 PDT

This is hardly a proper forum for a discussion of the policies of BYU
or any other school.
 
It is my OPINION that there is no ONLINE evidence that there were
protests held at BYU. Since it is impossible to prove a negative. So I
am withdrawing from this question.
 
Have a nice day. 

The answer was based on two things:
a) a link to an article that I had already indicated (in the comments)
did not answer the question
b) the researcher's opinion, although in my question I had explicitly
stated I would need something more substantive

As I explained in my last request for clarification, the answer did
not answer the question I asked. The answer given primarily was based
on the researcher's opinion rather than any facts.

I found nothing in my searches that point to a definitive answer, and
a call to the University yielded a "Oh no!  Not here! Not *our*
students!" type of answer (which I'm sure you expected).  All is not
yet lost, though.  I have a query in to the Utah State Archives for
you.  It might take a while - you know how fast government agencies
move.  :)

missy-ga <--curious herself

I realize this is a day late, but here is a link to a Utah history
site that describes the protest.

http://www.utahhistorytogo.org/vietnam.html

The protest occured October 15th, 1969, and included over 4000
protesters. The protest started in the Union Building and continued
with at march from Reservoir Park to the Federal Building. Overall the
protest was a peaceful one, with only one arrest.

That's an interesting story, but the protest was at the University of
Utah, not BYU.  But it does indicate that some faculty memmbers at BYU
did use the national moratorium day to discuss the war in their
classrooms.  That information might lead me somewhere.

This is not an answer, but perhaps a provocative clue: "Thou son of
man [the prophet], the children of thy people still are talking
against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses [e.g. when
the BYU student body booed Elder Ezra Taft Benson in an assembly
during the Vietnam war]...."

From a satirical glossary at:

http://www.greaterthings.com/Word-Number/Provo.htm

Interesting.  Benson wasn't the leader of the church at any time
during the Vietnam War (he became the church's president in 1985), but
he was an apostle.  I did find a reference to a BYU devotional he gave
in the late 1960s or early 1970s in which he reportedly called for a
victory in Vietnam to protect the U.S. Constitution. If I could find
credible evidence that he was indeed booed by a significant number of
BYU students (I'm quite skeptical, but stranger things have happened),
I'd accept that as an answer.
http://www.restorationhistory.com/rh/when-worlds-collide.html#N_115_

There is an online forum about the Vietnam War at
http://vets.appliedphysics.swri.edu/~rhughes/vn101/index.htm run by
two Ph.D.'s specialized in the history of the Vietnam war who say they
will try to find the answer to any question asked about that conflict.
 Perhaps you could post your query there?

I didn't feel right about doing this, and the cutting and pasting
their answer here, as it wouldn't be MY research.

good luck,
turnip-ga

Thanks, Turnip.  I posted my query there.

Here's some interesting information on the Church's position towards
military service and conscientious objectorship, from GRASS-ROOTS
DEVIANCE FROM OFFICIAL DOCTRINE: A STUDY OF LATTER-DAY SAINT (MORMON)
FOLK-BELIEFS by Richley H. Crapo
(http://barney.usu.edu/~FATH6/grassrts.htm ):


"The church has had varied history in its relationship to war and the
miliary (see, for instance, Quinn, 1984b, 1985). Quinn (1985)
characterized the church as having pursued an "ambivalent policy
toward militarism, war, and peace, which might be called 'selective
pacifism'" (16). By and large, presidents of the church expressed
support for a government's right to conscript men into military
service, praised the patriotism of those who served their countries in
the military, and at the same time expressed respect for those who
elected not to participate in the military if they did so for reasons
of conscience.

Brigham Young (1863: 248) said of those who left the United States to
avoid participating in the American Civil War,

...I think they are probably as good a class of men as has ever passed
through this country; they are persons who wish to live in peace, and
to be far removed from contending factions. As far as I am concerned I
have no fault to find with them.

However, throughout most of the history of the church, although
expressions respecting the sensibilities of those conscientiously
opposed to military service have been consistent, they have generally
been much more discreetly expressed than have sentiments of respect
for military service as an expression of loyalty to society. This is
well illustrated during the war in Vietnam, when the First Presidency
under the direction of President David O. McKay (1969: 12) publicly
declared, "We believe our young men should hold themselves in
readiness to respond to the call of their government to serve in the
armed forces when called upon ..." and at the same time (McKay, 1968)
instructed that private inquiries about the acceptability of
conscientious objection to military service be responded to with the
following reply:

As the brethren understand, the existing law provides that men who
have conscientious objection may be excused from combat service. There
would seem to be no objection, therefore, to a man availing himself on
a personal basis of the exemption provided by law. "

Here's a relevant excerpt from the faculty biography of Edwin B.
Firmage, at http://www.law.utah.edu/faculty/bios/firmagee.html :

"A Hinckley Fellow at Brigham Young University, he graduated with high
honors in political science and history. He received a Master's degree
in history from Brigham Young University... He worked with Vietnamese
refugees in Vietnam, Thailand and Hong Kong in 1990 and 1991... In
1991 he was also awarded the Turner-Fairbourn Award for significant
contributions to peace and justice. "