Google Answers Logo
View Question
 
Q: determining price of a website ( Answered 4 out of 5 stars,   4 Comments )
Question  
Subject: determining price of a website
Category: Business and Money > Advertising and Marketing
Asked by: southdakotasunshine-ga
List Price: $200.00
Posted: 15 Mar 2003 06:39 PST
Expires: 14 Apr 2003 07:39 PDT
Question ID: 176495
I have developed a website that provides information and resources for
people caring for aging parents.  My original intent was to seek
sponsors from local businesses to generate revenue to keep the website
up and running.  However, I was given the opportunity to show the
website to a Marketing Director of a major health organization in our
area.  (I was hoping they would become a primary or "title" sponsor) 
They have expressed a great interest in making this website
exclusively their own and have asked me "how much it would cost".  I
have no idea.  This organization has 4 major hospitals in our area,
with several (100+) smaller clinics, home medical equipment stores,
home health, etc.  This website is a HUGE marketing tool for them and
solves a unique problem they have been struggling with.  How do I put
a price on this? We have talked about a yearly licensing fee with a
monthly maintenance fee.(they want me to also manage the site, but
they would have complete control over content of the site) Can you
help?

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 15 Mar 2003 12:49 PST
Hello southdakotasunshine-ga,

Nice problem to have!  I have a lock on your question for now, and I
hope to be able to provide a top notch answer for you later today.

As it now stands, it would only be possible to offer very generic
guidance as to the experience others have had in buying and selling
websites, and the factors that were involved in setting a price.  If
this would suit your needs, then that's the tack I'll take.

If you want more specifics, though (either in an initial answer, or as
a follow-up to an initial answer, once it is posted) then it would be
a great help to know more about your site.  For instance:

--Is it already up and running, or is it in the development phase
(from your question, it sounds like it's up already...I just wanted to
be sure, though)?

--What sort of traffic are you seeing?  

--Do you have "subscribers"?  Repeat visitors?

--How visibly does your site show up in relevant searches (i.e., in a
Google search of relevant terms, such as [health care for aging
parents] (perhaps with your geopgraphic area included), does your site
rank high -- does it show up in the first page of listings?

--What costs and efforts are involved in maintaining the site?  

--And of course, if you want to let me (and the world!) know what your
site's address is, that would be a help as well.


You don't need to answer any of these questions if you'd rather not. 
Or, you can answer them all, and then some.  It's entirely up to you.

In the mean time, I'll be researching this topic in depth in order to
get you the best answer possible.

pafalafa-ga

Clarification of Question by southdakotasunshine-ga on 15 Mar 2003 14:09 PST
Hi! I will try to answer some of the questions you asked.  
The website is up and you are able to access it, however, because I do
not have all of the content in I don't feel comfortable having the
whole world look at it.  I have pretty much halted writing, being the
health organization interested will have control of the content.  We
meet next week, which should give me a better idea as to what
direction this will take. (which is also why I wanted some kind of
idea as to asking price)  Is there any way I can just show you the
site?
I had the site programmed so that I am able to make all the necessary
changes, and don't need to rely on someone else to make them.  So cost
in maintaining the site is minimal, on my part.  I will have to pay
the hosting fee, which if there is significant traffic will probably
be quite expensive (I am told around $800 a month?).  I will include
that in the monthly maintenance fee.
I don't think I have helped you much, but I don't know yet what kind
of traffic it will generate, however, I know this is a much needed
resource in our area.  Thanks.  Anxious to hear what you can find  :-)

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 15 Mar 2003 14:29 PST
Hello again, and thanks for the added info.  It helps, but
unfortunately I have to attend to some unexpected family business at
the moment.  So, with a sad heart, I am going to unlock your question
so another researcher can take a crack at it.  I'm sure you will get a
capable and expert reply.

Best of luck.

Clarification of Question by southdakotasunshine-ga on 15 Mar 2003 16:33 PST
Since I wasn't able to provide much of the information needed to
research the value of a website, maybe I should ask the question in a
different way - would it help to ask it in this way - "what makes a
marketing tool valuable to a hospital and what are they willing to pay
for it?"  Does that help, or am I making it worse?  :-)
Answer  
Subject: Re: determining price of a website
Answered By: larre-ga on 15 Mar 2003 20:09 PST
Rated:4 out of 5 stars
 
Thanks for asking!

You've reached a big milestone along the path of a successful
business. Let's see if we can provide the background needed to make
the choices that best fit your individual work and situation. I've
drawn upon my own experiences, and those of colleagues, as
consultants, and working web design/programming specialists to offer
you pricing "best practices."

I completely understand your desire to keep the actual URL and other
specific identifying information to yourself at this time. Without
solid numbers for so many of the variables, I'm going to outline
various pricing methods and formulas that'll assist you in determining
costs, then armed with that knowledge, you'll be able to figure out
how to set a price that is profitable for you, and within the
customers means and willingness to pay. The win/win scenario is that
of you feeling well compensated for your work, and the customer
feeling that their money is well spent.

I will also attempt to address your second clarification after I've
discussed rate setting. You need a basic understanding of minimum
pricing before you can determine the Value Pricing of your product.


THE RETROACTIVE BID
*******************

To sell a website as simply a product, you'd need to have firm
figures, rather than estimates, of traffic, advertising space, and the
rate that can be commanded for that space, based upon willingness of
advertisers to actually pay those rates. In other words, you'd need a
completed product with verifiable statistics. You'd need to be able to
demonstrate search engine placement, perhaps. Without those statistics
or demonstrations, you'd actually be selling a templated website.
Templated websites range in price from $299 to several thousand
dollars. I'm sure you believe your work has greater worth, and greater
value to the customer. So the question becomes: How can I maximize the
price?

You're actually in a very good position. The catbird seat. You've
completed the majority of a website, know the actual cost and time
figures, and have received a definite offer of interest for your
product and services. Figuring out how much to charge is not much
different than submitting an initial bid. Except instead of being
forced to guesstimate, you already know exact figures and time, and
just need to plug those values into the pricing formula you select.
You'll need to create a retroactive bid for the project.


COSTS AND PRICING
*****************

Let's start with a list of what you are actually selling. The exact
items, including your time. The list might look something like:

Original graphics (25 large, 50 medium, 150 small)*
  Creation time (50 hours)

Royalty Free Images (10)
  Cost per image $70
  Time for image search/customizing

HTML/XML Code - 50 pages, 150 lines per page* 
  Coding time

Original Programming (PHP/MySQL/Perl/Java/Javascripting/C et.al)*
  Coding time

Purchased CGIs - 5
  Search and Installation time

Navigation Design*
  Coding time

Website Installation and Testing
  Testing time

Your own list may be longer or shorter, but do try make it fairly
complete. The items on this sample list that I've marked with an
asterisk are Intellectual Property items. You own the copyright. These
are items that should be specifically mentioned in any contract as
such. Be sure you understand exactly what you are selling or
licensing, and under what terms. Licensing for exclusive use commands
a higher price than simple licensing, whereby you may use the items
for future work. Selling of intellectual property commands a higher
price still. You'd selling the creation time, the right of the
customer to do as they please with the work, plus compensation for the
"expected life" of the product. The pricing logic and scale for these
determinations is similar to computer software. A custom tax
accounting program, for example, would be very expensive. If the
creator mass produces the tax program  and sells it to many as Jack's
Tax, the price could be set much, much lower.

After you've completed your list, it's time to cost and price the
items. Items such as the CGIs and Royalty Free images are the easiest.
You know the cost, it's up to you to decide whether to take a standard
markup (50-100%) or to cost the times associated with the items
separately.

PRICING YOUR TIME
*****************

First, I'm going to send you off to read a relatively quick article
about Web Design pricing from A List Apart, Work for Hire, Setting
Fees and Getting Paid, by Scott Kramer. This article provides general
background on the fee setting process, with emphasis on Web Design.

A List Apart
Setting Fees and Getting Paid, by Scott Kramer
http://www.alistapart.com/stories/fee/

Next, it's time to figure a profitable hourly rate for your work. 


The Advertising Agency Method:
------------------------------

Determine how many billable hours in a year. 
Take an annual salary and add overhead
Add the PROFITABILITY FACTOR
Divide the salary + overhead + profit by billable hours.

We start with the number of billable hours in a year. To calculate
billable hours:

With a 40 hour work week, and 52 weeks per year, there are a possible
maximum of 2,080 Total hours per year.

Some adjustments need to be made however. Holidays, sicktime, and
dentist appointments happen. Since it's good to be paid for that time,
even though it's not billable, that likely proportion of time will
need to be factored into billable hours.

Traditionally, ad agencies use a figure of 1,600 as the standard
number of billable hours in a year. If you're self-employed and
consider yourself as chief cook, bottlewasher, and salesman, too, you
may want to reduce that number further.


Figuring Salary
---------------

Next, take the amount of money you expect to earn from web design work
this year, whatever you'd say your salary should be. I'm going to use
a figure of $10,000, not because it's at all accurate, but because it
makes the calculations easy.

The real costs of salary are not just the salary itself, but the
associated overhead incurred because of your work. Employer share of
payroll expenses, self-employment tax, health insurance, prorated
costs of computers and other hardware items needed for your work,
office equipment, and prorated cost of your office space. You need to
do this even if you are a one-person operation and self-employed,
working out of your garage. Otherwise, it's very likely you'll go
broke!

Accountants struggling to set overhead rates for advertising agency
salaries finally determined that a rule of thumb rate of 100% is
needed to fully cover all these expenses. Salary expense is equivalent
to overhead expense. In our example here, we now have a salary +
overtime rate of $20,000.

Now, we'll add in the Profitibility Factor. Most businesses aim for a
20% profit. We'll use that percentage to arrive at a salary + overhead
+ profit figure of $24,000.

To calculate, divide $24,000 by 1,600 billable hours, and you'll
arrive at an hourly rate of $15.00. Now you can see why $10,000 is
such a handy "guestimate" to use, because it gives us the billable
rate per 10,000. It's very easy to multiply in your head and come up
with figures that are more realistic. So if you make (or want to make)
$30,000 per year, simply multiply the hourly rate by 3, for $45.00.

The following Salary Guides will give you a much better idea of the
level of salary you can command for your skills.

Internet World Salary Survey - Design
http://www.internetworld.com/magazine.php?inc=070101/07.01.01feature2.html#design_1

Datamation: 2003 Looking Bright for IT Salaries
http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/itmgmtstaff/article.php/1567751

AIGA/Aquent Survey of Design Salaries 2000
http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm?contentalias=salarysurvey

A Day in the Life of A Designer 2001 - Web Design
http://graphicdesign.about.com/library/day/2001/blweb.htm

Now you have the basic method of rate setting in an business arena
very similar web design, but if you'd like additional background on
how various professional derive their rates, I can recommend the
article, The Geek's Guide to Internet Business Success - How to Set
Rates, by Bob Schmidt.

Provider Marketing Group
The Geek's Guide to Internet Business Success
How to Set Rates, by Bob Schmidt
http://www.provider.com/howtoset.htm 

Now, back to the first set of website cost/price calculations. From
your listing of items for sale, you can now fill in the blanks for
hourly rates. Don't hesitate to establish a higher rate for more
complex tasks.

Original graphics (25 large, 50 medium, 150 small)*
  Creation time (50 hours)

Royalty Free Images (10)
  Cost per image $70
  Time for image search/customizing

HTML/XML Code - 50 pages, 150 lines per page* 
  Coding time

Original Programming (PHP/MySQL/Perl/Java/Javascripting/C et.al)*
  Coding time

Purchased CGI's - 5
  Search and Installation time

Navigation Design*
  Coding time

Website Installation and Testing
  Testing time

Be sure to add in a reasonable number of hours for professional
consultation with the customer (not sales negotiations, but time
discussing the direction and specifics of the project itself.) You
should now have a profitable "Website Project Worth" figure. This is
your minimum value price.

Using this method, you should also be able to determine what price you
should charge for monthly maintenance. Monthly server costs, and/or
bandwidth charges will be determined by the what sort of hosting is
chosen. Dedicated hosting may be a less expensive, more reliable
option if high bandwidth is anticipated. If you are unfamiliar with
high volume websites, once you have better estimates of the space the
site will need, plus anticipated volume, you might consider posting a
new question asking for a features/benefits analysis, and specific
recommendations in your region, or you might speak with hosting
specialists at several of your local ISPs, or even consult nearby
server facilities.


PRICING STRATEGY
****************

Your long term business goals should determine your pricing approach
and strategy."If capturing market share is a priority, aggressive
pricing makes sense. However, if maximizing profitability is more
important, higher price and higher margin becomes the preferable
alternative. Apple Computer, for example, deliberately traded market
share for higher margin for most of its life, in contrast to Oracle
Corp., which heavily dealt on price to maintain dominant market share
and double revenue annually, as a precursor to going public."

As far as valuing your work, Shoestring Marketing advises: "Never
underestimate the value of value. Too many small businesses get
trapped into behavior that overstates price and understates value.
According to Bernhardt's formula, "Value equals what you get divided
by what you pay." Unfortunately, there is too much emphasis on the
"paying" and not enough on the "getting." Understand that only 20
percent of purchasers buy on price alone. With that in mind, smart
marketers will build tangible and definable value into their product
or service. More importantly, they'll take every opportunity to
repetitively communicate that value and ultimately capture it (or use
it as justification) in their pricing."

Setting Prices Can't Be Left to Guesswork
http://atlanta.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/1997/12/22/smallb2.html

Internet News discusses the concept of "Value Pricing" -- going beyond
the traditional cost/price estimation methods, to arrive at a "Value
Price." Beth Cox reviews the method and a recent study in an short
article entitled: 'Value Pricing' Key to Boosting Profits.

'Value Pricing' Key to Boosting Profits, by Beth Cox  
http://www.internetnews.com/stats/article.php/1609251

In "Value Pricing - Fad or Fashion", David J. Staniforth discusses the
adjustments necessary in order to adapt the concept of "Value Pricing"
to businesses which rely primarily on billable hours. "The idea behind
Value Pricing is for your firm to have clients who are prepared to pay
a higher than average fee for your services, and only those clients
i.e. one hundred per cent of them delight in paying higher than you
would normally charge based upon the billable hour."

T. Bookman Limited
Value Pricing - Fad or Fashion, by David J. Staniforth
http://www.tbookman.co.uk/Value_Pricing.htm

To find an answer to your question, "What makes a marketing tool
valuable to a hospital and what are they willing to pay for it?"
you'll need think through your  goals. Do you wish to be a web
designer or programmer, or do you wish to be an Application Service
Provider, offering websites as Marketing Tools. This choice will
determine how you'll price your products.

To determine the "value" of a tool to the organization, you'll need to
find out more about the organization itself. You'll need to ascertain
estimates of marketing budgets and current and historical
profitability. If your product were to increase profitability by 2
percent overall, it would be reasonable to charge a price in the range
of 5-10 percent of the net or gross increase, depending upon the
marketing budget. Once you are experienced in estimating such
statistics, you could possibly tie your pricing to gains. However,
until you have clear evidence of exactly what your product can do for
the customer, it's still a guessing game. Your pricing and marketing
of this initial project might even reflect the goal of executing your
first such project superbly, and gaining a reference and statistics
for future projects.

As the next step, I'm going to recommend that you print out your cost
figures, take a copy of your website, and make an appointment to talk
to a "professional mentor" at S.C.O.R.E., the Service Corps of Retired
Executives. Never fear, the service is free. You'll be matched to a
Counselor whose business skills closely match your needs and
requirements, and additionally, will be able to help you out
specifically, keeping your proprietary information confidential,
without fear of disclosure on a public website such as Google Answers.
S.C.O.R.E. offices are located in all cities, and most towns, nearly
400 offices nationwide, so the advisors are familiar with the local
businesscape. I've used S.C.O.R.E. mentoring myself, over 20 years
back, and credit the advice I received with the early success of my
own first consulting business.

S.C.O.R.E.
http://www.score.org/  


You might also investigate the communities at A List Apart, and
CyberCrew for further assistance or "how to price" advice from some of
the Web's successful design practitioners.

A List Apart - For People Who Build Websites
http://www.alistapart.com/news.html 

Cyber-Crew - A Community of Artists, Programmers, and Designers
http://www.cyber-crew.com/index.html 


PRICING CAUTIONS
****************

Lastly, I'll offer links to two sites that outline the do's and
don't's of discussing specific pricing in public.

iBoost.com
Pricing Yourself to Get (and Stay) in Business
http://www.iboost.com/profit/articles/3084.htm

HTML Writers Guild Pricing FAQ
http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/priceFAQ.html



RESEARCH STRATEGY: Personal knowledge, bookmarks, and web searches

Google search terms:

"setting prices" "web design" OR "website"
website appraisals
"value pricing"
"calculating price" "web design" OR "marketing tool"
"application service provider"

I hope this information and recommendations provide the assistance
you're seeking to get your new site design off to a profitable start.
Should you have any questions about the material or links presented,
please, feel free to ask.

larre-ga
southdakotasunshine-ga rated this answer:4 out of 5 stars
I found this answer to be very thorough and packed with resources and
information to further learn from.  I appreciated the time and effort
Larre put into this, as I know it was a pretty general question.  As
for the comment by mathee, "Woa...relax."  Of course it is ultimately
the end result that matters most, ie. you can spend 100 hours on a
site that isn't worth $10, but that isn't the case here, and if it
was, I wouldn't have paid $200 for the expert advice of a researcher. 
Thanks Larre.

Comments  
Subject: Re: determining price of a website
From: ericynot-ga on 15 Mar 2003 12:15 PST
 
Since I'm under the weather today, rather than keep this question
locked when I'm working at a snail's pace, in the interest of both
customer and other researchers, I'm unlocking it.

Here are a few links gathered that could help another of GA's able
researchers.

http://www.o-a.com/archive/1997/December/0130.html
http://www.onlinepublishingnews.com/htm/n99n17oln12.htm
http://www.ws4i.com/webeval.asp
http://www.internetnews.com/stocks/article.php/11_136131
http://www.mmp.co.uk/htm/19991206olp1.htm
http://www.websitebroker.com/valuation-part02.html
http://www.dotappraiser.com/order.htm
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.abseits.de/websitewert.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwebsite%2Bvaluation%26start%3D20%26num%3D20%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26sa%3DN

ericynot-ga
Subject: Re: determining price of a website
From: mathee-ga on 15 Mar 2003 20:39 PST
 
I disagree with this answer...it may be applicable in other offline
service situations but definitely not with website/online marketing
appraisal.  To be quite honest, it seems like the the answer
SIGNIFICANTLY overprices the value of websites in general.
The time spent on the website should have nothing to do with the value
of it.  To make long story short, in this case, the end is all that
matters; not the mean.  A person could spend 100 hours programming in
perl and produce something that's only worth 10 dollars.
I work at an online marketing company, taking care of online
promotions and website appraisal; and most of whats written in this
answer is not even close to how its done...in fact, a good chunk of
the links are not relevant...those value pricing sites and techniques
may work for firms such as consulting and accounting but not web
designing and maintaining, thats for sure.
Web designing and administrating is a unique service field/market.  An
accurate answer can most likely only be given by someone who has
actually worked for an extended period of time in an active web design
company or an online marketing company.  It is somewhat offensive when
someone else believes that such an answer can come by merely searching
the net or quoting value pricing methods of another field.
I've seen very qualified web designers/online marketing professionals
provide sound answers and was looking forward to reading one again for
this question... to be blunt, it is a bit disappointing... perhaps I
may still be able to see another researcher answer the question
Subject: Re: determining price of a website
From: aceresearcher-ga on 15 Mar 2003 22:18 PST
 
mathee,

Boy, are you going to be embarrassed.

Larre has been designing websites since 1996. The last I knew, her
average project totaled around $10K and ran for 2-3 months. Her
largest project ever was worth $350K and lasted 18 months.

Larre is an independent consultant. She markets her own work, and she
earns $36-50K annually, for about 20-25 hours of work a week.

Her website receives over 2 million hits a year, and earns about $1K
from advertising a month -- despite the fact she hasn't had to update
it in over 2 years. She pays costs of around $250 per month for
webspace and traffic.

I'm VERY lucky to know Larre personally, because she helps me out on
occasion. Her regular hourly rate for Web programming is $95, and she
doesn't need to accept every project any more, only those that are
"easy" and are something she feels like doing.

Larre's been a consultant for almost 30 years, starting with
programming and software, and she knows numerous languages, including
Pascal, ADA, C, and C++. She was in high demand and earned a great
deal of money performing Y2K Cobol Remediation. When networks evolved,
she got into administration. For one of her contracts, she maintains a
20,000 page LAN!  For several years now, she has provided consulting
as a security specialist for $185/hr, designing security sub-routines
and plugging security holes for small and medium size networks -- in
addition to several government agencies!

She runs her own company, and for large projects, she has supervised
good-sized programming staffs to bring them to successful completion.

Oh... and she's created websites for web marketers and done search
engine positioning for websites which have then become extremely
successful.

The figures and methods quoted by Larre in her Answer are used by web
designers and anyone else in related fields who use billable hours to
calculate the value of their services.

SouthDakotaSunshine is extremely fortunate to have drawn a Researcher
as skilled as Larre for their Question.

I recommend that you read -- and learn. That's what I'm going to do.

Regards,

aceresearcher
Subject: Re: determining price of a website
From: seedy-ga on 15 Mar 2003 23:36 PST
 
SouthDakotaSunshine:

Having retired from managing complex companies for over 30 years, not
in web site design/development, marketers recognize that the market
sets the price. The price should not be too high to scare everyone
away and not too low to underprice your effort. Everyone recognizes
the negotiation process that will determine the final pricing for your
"effort." I believe the researcher provides you a fair way to
determine the range of pricing and/or licensing agreements to use for
your negotiation.

There is an old adage in negotiation that the first person to mention
a price loses the negotiation. Armed with the information ranges
suggested by the researcher to educate your mind, you are now entering
into a negotiation where the best result is win/win.  Be sure to have
the benefits to the customer clear in your mind before you start your
negotiation and be sure to recognize signs that the customer is
prepared to develop their own site without your help if the price is
too high.

While I don't pretend to "know" the value of a web site, I would
suggest that $25K up front and a continuing fee for a fixed period of
time (60 months) over and above the out of pocket costs makes sense if
the researcher's approach develops that range.

The reason I give the researcher's approach credence, is that it has a
logic to it that can justify your position whether the customer
recognizes the method or not.  Customers like think there is some
logic to pricing  even if it is illogical to them in the final
analysis. My experiences in dealing with multi-million dollar
contracts with companies whose sales were in the range of one billion
dollars was to get their attention then negotiate the win/win
situation.  In some cases the customer will hate to pay a large up
front cost, but will are willing to pay significant fees per month for
a fixed period of time with an automatic renewal while other customers
are willing to reduce the monthly fee by making a significant up front
payment.

An experienced business attorney can give you good advice as to the
framing of the agreement although I liked to negotiate the key points
and let the attorney put it in iron clad terms rather than asking the
attorney to start from the beginning with the negotiation. The latter
approach often results in high legal fees and bad blood on both sides
as the lawyers fight for first ego position. (Sorry Tom).....

Aceresearcher has vouched for the researcher's bona fides. Make a good
decision and good luck

seedy

Important Disclaimer: Answers and comments provided on Google Answers are general information, and are not intended to substitute for informed professional medical, psychiatric, psychological, tax, legal, investment, accounting, or other professional advice. Google does not endorse, and expressly disclaims liability for any product, manufacturer, distributor, service or service provider mentioned or any opinion expressed in answers or comments. Please read carefully the Google Answers Terms of Service.

If you feel that you have found inappropriate content, please let us know by emailing us at answers-support@google.com with the question ID listed above. Thank you.
Search Google Answers for
Google Answers  


Google Home - Answers FAQ - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy