A recent Associated Press news analysis made the following statement:
"Even grape juice isn't safe enough for the zealously anti-alcohol
Mormon
religion, which requires that water be drunk during Communion to avoid
even the slightest risk of fermentation."

I have been unable to find verification of this statement anywhere. I
am looking for historical evidence that the reason Mormons use water
as opposed to unfermented juice is because of concern that the juice
might ferment.  The only thing that I have been able to find is that
-- The church supposedly was told by an angel that it shouldn't
purchase wine from its enemies.
-- The church for some years used its own wine (quite possibly the
unfermented variety).
-- Some leaders substituted water when wine wasn't available, and the
use of water thus became a tradition and eventually a rule.
-- Many Mormons believe that the water is used because it is symbolic
of baptism, although this apparently isn't official doctrine.

I do not want:
-- A statement of the Mormon belief that it doesn't matter whether or
not wine and bread are used as the elements and that other items can
be substituted.
-- Evidence that the church frowns on the use of alcohol.
-- Anything on the probability that juice will ferment.

What I'm looking for is a historical statement of somebody within the
church that water is preferable to juice because of the possibility of
fermentation; it doesn't have to be stated as official doctrine. In
other words, the preference for water because of fermentation fears
could have been a folk belief within the church culture even if that
belief wasn't supported by the hierarchy. (I have, for example, found
historical statements that church members denouncing the use of
chocolate because of its caffeine content, even though that wasn't
official doctrine and certainly isn't the general practice today.)

I'm not looking for historical statements to the contrary (that juice
is acceptable), nor am I looking for evidence that juice has in fact
been used where water isn't available.  Nor am I looking for
statements similar to that in the first paragraph unless there's some
credible evidence to support it.

I don't need a lengthy response; a link (or reference to a verifiable
written source) will do if it answers the question.

Thanks!

According to the webpage
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_practices.shtml
Jeff Lindsay, a member of the LDS church (although he has a disclaimer
that his not an *official* page), says, "The sacrament prayer
explicitly emphasizes that the water (*or pure wine, which can be used
in theory but isn't in practice*) represents the blood of Christ which
He shed for us [emphasis added]".  So it seems that there is no sudden
revelation or other *requirement* that water be used at all (and of
course, as you have already researched, wine and juice certainly *was*
used in the past).  It simply became engrained tradtion.

   Geoff Mattherw, an LDS member on the alt.religion.mormon newsgroup
says, "If it does not matter what we use, why not use water, as long
as it is clean
and safe?  Cheaper, and much more readily available (not to mention
easier to
store)."

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&safe=off&threadm=73djma%242ij%241%40nnrp1.dejanews.com&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fq%3DMormon%2Bwater%2B%2522grape%2Bjuice%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF8%26oe%3DUTF8%26safe%3Doff%26selm%3D73djma%25242ij%25241%2540nnrp1.dejanews.com%26rnum%3D2

   Another LDS poster in that same group, Charles Marston says, "At
the same time fresh grape
      juice would have been impractical in 1840 for year around use.
      Therefore we believe the Lord told Joseph that it really did not
      matter what we used as long as it was in remembrance of him. It
      was the spirit of the law not the letter. We were instructed
      that we could use water in the place of wine. Water, being
      available all year around and not having to be obtained of our
      enemies, we moved to water...with the Lord's approval, we
      believe."

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Mormon+water+%22grape+juice%22&start=10&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&safe=off&selm=394leb%24ko8%40news.delphi.com&rnum=19

   I hope this is enough of a refutation from members of the church
itself to say that the AP story has no basis in fact.

   The Re-organized LDS church has re-introduced grape juice in 1974
for nonmembers to take communion with (see
www.letusreason.org/LDS16.htm ).

        
   I assume from your question that you have already read section 27
and 89 of the Doctorine and Covenants, which talk about using only
their own wine, and later, saying it does not matter what they use?

       Hope this helps,
                 turnip-ga

Search terms:
Mormon OR LDS OR "Latter Day"  wine "grape juice" water
Mormon wine water "grape juice" ferment OR ferments OR fermentation

---

Request for Answer Clarification by wantstoknow-ga on 30 May 2002 16:44 PDT

The research doesn't answer what I asked; it basically provides
evidence for what I indicated I don't want and what I already believe
to be true.  Basically I believe that the news article referred to is
wrong and that I'm right.  I'm willing to pay a few dollars to be
proven wrong (because that way I learn something new) but I'm not
willing to pay to be proven right.  Before you do a clarification,
please read carefully what I said in my question I want and what I
don't want.  Thank you.

---

Clarification of Answer by turnip-ga on 31 May 2002 06:32 PDT

I'm aware of what you asked, and and what you did not want.  That's
why I steered clear of references to everything in your "don't want"
list, of which there were many such references. Othereiwse, I could
have for example pointed you to the Ant-Anti-Mormon page, which at
length (but basically at base) reiterates the "why not?" argument.

  What I had not realized until your clarification was that you were
only willing to pay for evidence that you were wrong.  Since you are
NOT wrong, I guess you will have to reject my answer.

          I remain, respectfully,
          turnip-ga

---

Request for Answer Clarification by wantstoknow-ga on 03 Jun 2002 06:41 PDT

I think I was clear enough in what I wanted.  But it's possible I
wasn't, and it's obvious you answered the question as you did in good
faith. Under those circumstances, since I have become convinced that
what I seek isn't available on the World Wide Web (but perhaps in
print somewhere), because I've paid only a token amount, because you
handled the clarification request in a professional manner, and
because I appreciate your efforts, I'm not going to punish you by
rejecting your answer or giving you a low rating.  Best wishes in your
further researches with Google!

---

Clarification of Answer by turnip-ga on 03 Jun 2002 10:11 PDT

Thank you for your concern for my rating.  That is very kind of you

I have also researched your questions in some books but was unable to
find anything to support the Associated Press's assertion. I wish you
success in this and subsequent quests for knowledge.

turnip-ga

A class act.

Hello Wantstoknow,

If this is satisfactory answer I'd be happy to post it as such; for
now I will make it a comment, since I'm not sure I found exactly what
you need.
My research brought up the historical interchangeability of the words
"wine" and "grape juice" as an argument in favor of what you seek.

Quote "Jesus and wine":
http://www.answering-christianity.com/que18.htm
"(...) the fact that in Hebrew grape juice was often referred to as
wine."

Quote "Wine or Grape Juice for Passover?"
http://www.yrm.org/wine_or_grape_juice.htm
""Wine" here is the Hebrew "tirosh," meaning freshly pressed juice"

Quote ChristianityToday.com, Roland H. Bainton:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/114/54.0.html
"In Hebrew tirosh is the word alleged to represent unfermented grape
juice. The various usages of the word indicate that it does mean the
juice of the grape whether in the grape or in the vat. It is the raw
product out of which wine is made as bread is made out of flour.
Tirosh is commonly translated "new wine." But this is not to say that
it was not intoxicating."

Quote "Is ALCOHOLIC COMMUNION Biblical?":
http://www.modestapparelchristianclothinglydiaofpurpledressescustomsewing.com/is%20alcohol_in_communion%20biblical.htm
"It is reported in early English the word, "WINE" was used for both
the pure blood of the grape undefiled (grape juice) and also for that
which has began to decay, rot, and go in the direction of spoilage
containing alcohol. In 1380 English the "Wyne" come from the "Vyne".
According to Webster’s 1828 we see even clearer the connection of the
original word "wine" being tied to Italian, Spanish, and Russian
"vino", Latin "vinum" we begin to see the connection of VINE (Spanish
vina, Latin vinea) to WINE. THEREFORE FRESH SQUEEZED GRAPES WERE
SPOKEN AND WRITTEN TO PRODUCE, "WINE", "yayin" Hebrew, "oinos" Greek,
all UNFERMENTED.

Their clear wording for "grape juice" was worded "fruit of the vine"
in the New Testament."

Quote "Wine or Grape Juice":
http://www.gtaea.org/study1.htm
"In ancient times it was impossible to preserve grape juice. Except
for a short season the "fruit of the vine" was either made into a
thick molasses or into wine."

Quote Samuele Bacchiocchi on The Preservation of Grape Juice:
"A major objection to the view that Scripture approves the use of
unfermented grape juice is the alleged impossibility in Bible times of
preserving grape juice unfermented."

Further references:

Wine, The Bible and a Mormon
http://www.cherrycheesecake.com/wbm.htm

Wine or Grape Juice, by Davis Huckabee:
http://www.llano.net/baptist/wineorgrapejuice.htm

Why Use Water for the Sacrament?
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/sacrament.htm

SEARCH STRATEGY

MORMON WATER COMMUNION
://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF8&oe=UTF8&q=mormon+water+communion&spell=1

-Librarygopher

related information

what the bible says about alcohol
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/sarina21/challenge/alcohol.html