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Subject:
View The Moon
Category: Science > Astronomy Asked by: inertia-ga List Price: $4.00 |
Posted:
30 May 2002 21:48 PDT
Expires: 06 Jun 2002 21:48 PDT Question ID: 19030 |
How could I go about building a telescope such that it would be able to clearly view the US landing sites on the moon? |
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Subject:
Re: View The Moon
Answered By: skermit-ga on 30 May 2002 22:29 PDT Rated: |
Hello! Although I highly doubt the resolution necessary to view the actual landing site complete with detail such as shuttle impact craters and flag can be had by an amateur built telescope, I have probably misread your question and instead you are looking to build a telescope that's able to give you a closeup view of the landing sites in relationship to natural land formations on the moon. Here are plans for a couple telescopes that will accomplish that goal, but I suggest buying, "Build Your Own Telescope" by Richard Berry (link below). It is a beginner level telescope which will be able to discern land formations. He has written another book for large aperature telescopes (link below) but that requires you to find special curved mirrors in excess of 8" in diameter or have access to a shop where you can grind your own mirror. These large aperature telescopes may be what you're looking for in terms of resolution but are costly to make. Here are links to a couple plans of build-it-yourself telescopes. Additional Links: "Build Your Own Telescope" by Richard Berry: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0943396425/moonlightsystems "The Dobsonian Telescope : A Practical Manual for Building Large Aperture Telescopes" by Richard Berry: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0943396557/moonlightsystems/002-1505541-6804800 Amateur built telescope with walkthrough: http://www.moonlightsys.com/atm/tour.html Another amateur built telescope with walkthrough: http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~victorp/mtelescope.htm Two separate amateur built telescopes with walkthrough: http://www.hickorytech.net/~landsg/ Website devoted to tools and diagnostic skills necessary to build a working telescope: http://telescopemaking.org/ Search Strategy: "build your own telescope" on google: ://www.google.com/search?q=%22build+your+own+telescope%22 Hope this information helps, clarify your question if you need more info or feel free to rate this answer if you find it satisfactory! Thanks! skermit-ga |
inertia-ga
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Subject:
Re: View The Moon
From: dnoha-ga on 31 May 2002 05:47 PDT |
Your question could be interpreted in various ways. I think Skermit has done a good job pointing you in useful directions if you are interested in building your own telescope. Without considering non-optical sensing methods, I anticipate the possibility of at least two other possible questions here: 1. "DOES a telescope exist that can (from the Earth or near Earth) see the artifacts left at the landing sites?" - It is my understanding that the answer is "no". The moon is roughly a quarter of a million miles away and the objects left behind are too small to be resolved by the largest aperture telescopes now extant. The Hubble telescope in orbit over the Earth could be considered "closer" to the moon, but only marginally. It does have the advantage of not having to contend with the Earth's atmosphere like ground based telescopes do (a considerable advantage), but is much smaller in aperture. 2. "COULD a telescope exist that could (from the Earth or near Earth) see the artifacts left at the landing sites?" - I think we'd have to give this a "yes" answer. I'm not an expert on optics nor on all the things that happen to the light bouncing off the Moon and eventually reaching our eyes or telescopes. Someone more expert might point out possibly intractible problems in the latter area. There would certainly be some cost and engineering issues to deal with, but I'd say it is otherwise possible. After all, one of the lessons of science is that we keep surprising ourselves at what can actually be done that once seemed absurdly impossible. That there even are such human artifacts on the moon is sound testament to that lesson! |
Subject:
Re: View The Moon
From: thx1138-ga on 31 May 2002 07:40 PDT |
Have a look at this website to give you an idea of the problem. The Picture of "Mir" was taken from the ground with a 90 inch (Diameter of aperture) telescope !!!!!! and is very blurred. Consider the distance from the surface of the Earth to Mir and then from Earth to the Moon !!!!! http://satobs.org/telescope.html Mir is (sorry was) about 500 kilometers above the Earth. The Moon is about 384,000 kilometers from Earth. The pictures of Mir were taken by a 90 inch telescope from earth, so to see something on the Moon of similar size (and Mir was considerably larger than any items left on the Moon) 384,000/500=768 768*9=6912 inches divide by 12= 576 FEET. A telescope with an aperture of 576 feet is not feasable. The largest ground based telescopes are about 32 Feet. It would be great though ! THX1138 |
Subject:
Re: View The Moon
From: thx1138-ga on 31 May 2002 08:44 PDT |
Even if you´ve got $500 million to spend you could still only see objects of 3 meters on the moon, the largest item left on the moon being the Lunar Buggy is less than 3 meters. Have a look at this CNN story http://www.cnn.com/TECH/9602/chile_telescope/ For interest, the US flag planted on the Moon is probably not there now as it was made of Nylon and Nylon disintegrates over time because of Ultra Violet rays. Here on Earth the Ozone layer filters out much of the UV but as the moon has no atmosphere (to speak of) it´s probably disinteragrated. THX1138 |
Subject:
Re: View The Moon
From: lazerfx-ga on 31 May 2002 08:49 PDT |
One thing to remember when dealing with telescope aperture sizes is: The physical telescope does not need to be that big. I recent watched a television program in the UK (Tomorrows World [ http://www.bbc.co.uk/tw/ ]) that referred to this problem, and explained how they were using amateur telescopes from all across the UK to take photographs of space - in theory, if you work them together with the right software you can get a much higher aperture size than the parts. |
Subject:
Re: View The Moon
From: dnoha-ga on 31 May 2002 11:00 PDT |
More good feedback on the variables involved, even some calculations of cost and telescope size! Thx1138 offered some interesting insight on the nature of the problem, both from the perspective of telescope size and the problem of the blurred images of Mir as seen from Earth. The purpose of Hubble was to address the latter issue since the single biggest problem for ground based astronomers is having to see through the atmosphere. It is a very unstable medium and substantially affects the light traveling through it. One of the reasons large telescopes are typically situated on high mountains is to get above some of this distorting atmosphere. And Laserfx offered a good observation about the possibility of using an array of smaller scopes to mimic a huge one. There are analogues of a similar nature in the radio telescope arena. Again, Im not an expert, but I think the biggest constraint in building large telescopes is in the construction of the main mirror. Huge chunks of glass arent easy to make and then cool without breaking, nor is it a trivial matter to shape them to the precise curve needed to collect and accurately focus the light they gather. On the other hand, physically reflective and refractive surfaces arent the only ways to collect and focus light. As Einstein theorized and as has been subsequently proven, light is bent by gravitational influences. In time, Id expect someone to come up with a method for capturing and focusing light that works off of a principal like this, or similar properties of others of the basic forces the universe is built from. Perhaps something like this is well known already, but hasnt yet been applied to astronomical purposes. |
Subject:
Re: View The Moon
From: thx1138-ga on 03 Jun 2002 05:57 PDT |
The problem with casting and polishing the mirrors exactly, is actually not really a problem as the VLT (very large telescope) project shows. The mirrors are actually flexible, and have several small jacks at the back of the mirror, this enable the mirrors shape to be altered slightly to account for any distortions etc. The VLT project is interesting as it is a combination of 4 large optical telescopes (each one is 8.2meters) the results are then combined as mentioned above. Have a look at their website here: http://www.eso.org/outreach/info-events/ut1fl/ |
Subject:
Re: View The Moon
From: ulu-ga on 30 Jun 2002 03:12 PDT |
I presuming the question is related to recent stories by a few people proposing that the moon landing was faked. Are you wondering if a person could verify it for themselves? This comment comes to the same general conclusion, no... for now. The moon is visually, roughly .5 degrees or 1800 arcseconds. Its diameter is 3474km so 1 arcsecond is about 2km on the moon. The Hubble can see about .1 arcseconds or 200m. You would need a resolving power of .0015 arcseconds to have the 3m rover appear (as a pixel or two). Even a proposed 30m space telescope would only get you to .01 arcseconds. It was suggested, if you looked at the moon during its sunrise/sunset the shadow would be longer. http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/noluncon.htm http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/moonfact.html http://www.afrlhorizons.com/Briefs/Sept01/DE0102.html This site mentions that a typical 6" could resolve 1.5 mile objects while the Hubble could resolve 100 meters. This also lists the locations on the moon where the Apollo missions landed. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/astronomy/faq/part2/section-22.html Also mentioned, was the possibility to bounce a laser off the reflectors. One site states they were using a billion watt pulsed laser to get results. Most common laser pointers are at most 5 milliwatts. Perhaps a sensitive telescope/instrument near the transmitting telescope could pick up the "flash". Data continues to be gathered from these 30+ year old mirrors. http://spacelink.nasa.gov/NASA.News/NASA.News.Releases/Previous.News.Releases/94.News.Releases/94-07.News.Releases/94-07-21 http://www.guardian.co.uk/spacedocumentary/story/0,2763,634136,00.html http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/releases/2002/release_2002_37.html Amateur astronomy has changed greatly over the past 10 years through the use of CCD/CMOS imagers, video cameras, computers and some smart people. Perhaps it will be possible within the next 10 to see it for yourself. http://skyandtelescope.com/ Maybe driving a vehicle remotely on the moon will be the way to see it. http://www.beyond2000.com/news/story_167.html http://www.lunacorp.com/home.html I still hoping to visit the sites, personally. |
Subject:
Overwhelmingly Large Telescope (OWL)
From: ulu-ga on 09 Jul 2002 04:30 PDT |
"The 100m OWL telescope proposed a few years ago by the European Southern Observatory group (ESO) may actually be built. Currently, the largest aperture for a telescope is the Very Large Telescope (VLT) at a 'very tiny' 16.4m by comparison. This monster is predicted to have a light gathering resolution of about 40 times the Hubble Space Telescope and a sensitivity several thousand times greater. Among many other things, it should be powerful enough to detect and gather spectroscopic data of extra-solar planets in order to determine the atmospheric composition and any signatures for life, like oxygen." http://science.slashdot.org/science/02/07/09/0119210.shtml?tid=160 It just might be possible... |
Subject:
Re: View The Moon
From: thenextguy-ga on 22 Jul 2002 14:52 PDT |
Here's a Hubble picture of the landing site: http://hubble.nasa.gov/art/faq/moon_apollo17.jpg Maybe that thing in the center is the lower part of the LEM & its shadow. The site mentions that one problem is the motion of the Moon during the 0.1 seconds Hubble needs to make a picture. As you look with bigger telescopes, that effect is magnified. Even if the 100m telescope is built, I'd be surprised if they point it at the moon. This thing could gather 1600x as much light as the Hubble (it depends on area). The sun is covering the Earth (& Moon) with about 1400 watts of power/square meter. The moon is exceptionally dark & only reflects about 7% of that. If we do the math for 1400 watts/meter^2 * 0.07 * pi * (50 m)^2, that's an awful lot of power to concentrate down onto an expensive CCD. It would suck if it caught fire! (This assumes the Sun's spectrum looks the same as the Moon's - not a good assumption, probably). |
Subject:
Apollo 17 and Hubble
From: ulu-ga on 06 Aug 2002 18:07 PDT |
It turns out that that photo is really taken by Ronald E. Evans in the Apollo 17 Command Module while he was orbiting the moon. NASA photograph AS17-2309[P] http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap020628.html http://hubble.nasa.gov/art/faq/moon_apollo17.jpg http://www.lpi.usra.edu/expmoon/Apollo17/A17_Lsite.HRenlarged.gif http://www.lpi.usra.edu/expmoon/Apollo17/A17_LandingSite_viewsof.html Here you can see other landing sites and also see Clementine's recent view of Apollo 15's landing site. http://www.tass-survey.org/richmond/answers/lunar_lander.html http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~durda/Apollo/ls_15e.html http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~durda/Apollo/landing_sites.html Hubble Shoots the Moon http://oposite.stsci.edu/pubinfo/PR/1999/14/index.html |
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