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Q: word for when art is in art ( Answered,   10 Comments )
Question  
Subject: word for when art is in art
Category: Arts and Entertainment
Asked by: sosodelf-ga
List Price: $2.00
Posted: 26 Apr 2003 18:07 PDT
Expires: 26 May 2003 18:07 PDT
Question ID: 195962
What is the word for when art is in art. For example, when there is a
sculpture portrayed in a painting or when a painting is mentioned in a
poem. Allusion is not the word I am looking for.
Answer  
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
Answered By: juggler-ga on 26 Apr 2003 20:20 PDT
 
Hello.

I believe that the word that you're looking for is "ekphrasis."

"'Ekphrasis.' Ekphrasis can be defined as 'art within art; the act of
exercising one art form (poetry) to bring life to other art forms
(paintings, sculptures, music, and dance).' This process was first
appears in the Golden Age of Greece."
source: Xfrasis translations, hosted by alike.com
http://www.alike.com/haikufilms/xfrasis.htm

"The term ekphrasis is defined in a variety of ways, all relating in
general towords representing something visual in content.  The Oxford
Classical Dictionary, states that ekphrasis is, 'an extended and
detailed literary description of any object, real or imaginary'
(515)."
source: Ekphrasis, hosted by rochester.edu
http://www.courses.rochester.edu/kraus/Ekphrasis.htm

"ekphrasis, or the poetic description of a work of art. Formally
speaking, ekphrasis is any description which brings a person, place,
or thing vividly before the mind's eye.[1] But this definition is only
useful if we are thinking in broad terms, or if we are invoking the
rhetorical function of the word as set forth in Aphthonius's
Progymnasmata, one of the earliest textbooks of prose style. For our
purposes, ekphrasis can be understood as a means of citing one work of
art within another, "
source: "Shelley, Medusa, and the Perils of Ekphrasis"
http://www.otal.umd.edu/~eshevlin/gscott.html

search strategy: "art within art" defined

I hope this helps.
Comments  
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
From: burris-ga on 26 Apr 2003 23:28 PDT
 
Personally, I am not so sure that ekphrasis is the right word re this
question. An example of E.in a weak sense would perhaps be Keats' Ode
to (on?} a Grecian Urn--in a strong sense the classic example: the
detailed, elaborate description of the Shield of Achilleus in the
Iliad. An example of what was asked for would surely be the paintings
on the wall in various paintings of Rembrandt, or the (um) allusion to
one of Brahms' symphonies in Nielsen's 5th Symphony (I think that's
where it is). Seems to me that a critical aspect of E. is a detailed
de- scription of something within a larger work. (I guess it goes
without saying that both description and surrounding work must be in
the same medium.)-- Com- ments, criticism, miscellaneous abuse?
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
From: juggler-ga on 26 Apr 2003 23:59 PDT
 
Well, Burris, the question specifically asked for the word to describe
"when a painting is mentioned in a poem."  As indicated, the proper
word is ekphrasis.

Moreover, a scholarly article cited above gives a broad definition of
the word: "For our purposes, ekphrasis can be understood as a means of
citing one work of art within another."

If you are aware of a better word, I'd love to hear it.

Best regards,
juggler
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
From: mvguy-ga on 27 Apr 2003 00:11 PDT
 
I'd agree that "ekphrasis" works for written descriptions of visual
media. I'd suspect that if there were a special word for a picture
within a picture it would be on the following page:
http://www.sangensha.co.jp/allbooks/index/064E.htm
I suppose if you want to impress your friends you could use "tableau
dans de tableau."

I did come across one reference that used the term "embedded," but it
is used in a variety of contexts, even when pertaining to art.
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
From: j_philipp-ga on 27 Apr 2003 00:28 PDT
 
In my opinion, "ekphrasis" fits very good. Maybe "re-representation" as alternative.
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
From: voila-ga on 27 Apr 2003 12:49 PDT
 
You mentioned "allusion" which made me think "trompe l'oliel" but it
doesn't match the definition as given.  Agree with juggler's
"ekphrasis."

Sample of trompe l'oliel:
http://www.nga.gov/exhibitions/trompe-info.htm
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
From: voila-ga on 28 Apr 2003 10:56 PDT
 
Here's a 21st century example of trompe l'oeil (note the painting
within a painting of Marilyn Monroe) with diaries to match the motif.
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/04/11/tem_art_review_artist.html
http://www.michaelscott.net/exhibit_redhen.htm
http://www.michaelscott.net/diane_armitage.htm
http://www.michaelscott.net/marilyn_bauer.htm

Here's to Red finding her moxie and me learning how to spell "trompe
l'oeil" correctly. ;-)
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
From: juggler-ga on 28 Apr 2003 11:17 PDT
 
Thanks for the input, Voila.

Trompe l'Oeil is interesting, but it certainly could not be considered
a general term for "art within art" applicable to, say, a painting
mentioned in a poem.

"Trompe l'Oeil (trohmp loy'): A form of illusionistic painting that
attempts to represent an object as though it existed in three
dimensions at the surface of the painting; literally,
'trick-the-eye.'"
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/catmandrew/tromloeilsti.html
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
From: voila-ga on 28 Apr 2003 11:51 PDT
 
Nah, juggler, I'm sure it's not "trompe l'oeil" but I just wanted to
play pimp-the-painter.  Gotta give it up for a hen who channels the
genome code for Elvis.

"Ekphrasis" is much more accurate to the definition. ;-)
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
From: burris-ga on 01 May 2003 18:09 PDT
 
Hi all--I'll have another shot at this issue of ekphrasis. The
definition in the OCD of e. does say "an extended...literary
description of any object...." And the scholarly article you cite (I'm
sure you're referring to your 3rd citation) makes it quite clear, in
the first paragraph, that it is dealing with the same notion. You
don't quite play fair by referring to one part of sosodelf's query  "a
painting mentioned in a poem" without referencing the other part
"sculpture portrayed in a painting". The former is an e. so long as
the mention of the painting is "extended and detailed" (OCD). The
latter however is altogether different. I argue that a sculpture,
painting, or textual quotation in a painting simply doesn't fit the
the definition. This can best be described as (sorry) an allusion. The
devil is in the details--in this case a question of medium--literary
or graphic. (By the way, the OCD's one-paragraph definition is not
really not very comprehensive--a much more interesting one is in the
Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry & Poetics.)  P.S.  Trompe l'oeil, if
that's the way it's spelled, is a fascinating subject--but off point.
It simply means a painting so realistic that a viewer is tricked into
thinking the representaion is the thing represented.
Subject: Re: word for when art is in art
From: juggler-ga on 01 May 2003 18:55 PDT
 
Burris:

I'm sorry, but a sculpture, painting, or textual quotation in a
painting can indeed fit the definition of ekphrasis.  Such "art within
art" is what critics have called "visual" ekphrasis.

Here's an example of this exact usage in an article from the Los
Angeles Times:

"Photographs of artworks from antiquity to the late 1930s make up
'Images That Yet/Fresh Images Beget . . .: Photographing Art.' ...
'The photographs in this exhibit are visual ekphrasis. The visual
object (each photograph depicts) is the starting point for the
photographs...'
This concept is well illustrated by a Kertesz photograph on view,
Lifson, visiting Los Angeles recently, said in a phone interview. The
image depicts a statue representing the Republic of France presiding
over a populated plaza. This action is seen through the transparent
face of a large clock, whose one dark hand and Roman numerals obscure
part of the Parisian scenario."
Source: ARTWORKS BEGET PHOTOS IN GETTY EXHIBITION
The Los Angeles Times (Pre-1997 Fulltext); Los Angeles, Calif.; Sep
27, 1987

Again, I'm still waiting for you to come up with a better word.  The
customer specifically asked for a word other than "allusion." 
Frankly, I was surprised to see you suggest that, as that word in no
way conveys the special sense of "art within art."

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