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Q: dogs agressive behavior ( Answered,   2 Comments )
Question  
Subject: dogs agressive behavior
Category: Miscellaneous
Asked by: asuwhish-ga
List Price: $2.00
Posted: 28 Apr 2003 20:40 PDT
Expires: 28 May 2003 20:40 PDT
Question ID: 196864
I have a 10  year old Rhodesian Ridgeback mix that has always loved
cats, obsessed with them, we recently acquired a Chow mix puppy
(male).  Our female does nothing but attack him with or without a
mussel.  We need these dogs to work it out.  Any help or suggestions? 
Why is this happening?  Please HELP/
Answer  
Subject: Re: dogs agressive behavior
Answered By: knowledge_seeker-ga on 28 Apr 2003 21:28 PDT
 
Hi asuwhish-ga,

Be assured your dogs WILL work it out. And you CAN help. 

But you have to remember they are dogs ..not people. 

Dogs are pack animals. And in a pack there must be a leader or
dominant dog, and then there must be lower-ranked animals. The reason
dogs do well with humans is that they see themselves as having a place
in the human "pack," usually with at least one human above them. That
human is the one they take orders from.

So, your Ridgeback has decided where she stands compared to everyone
in the house. Now you add a new puppy that everyone is fawning over.
The Ridgeback has to make sure this puppy understands that it is a
lower ranking member of the family. The only way she knows how to do
that is to snap, bite, or growl at the puppy.

This looks terribly harsh to us humans, but in fact is the one
language all dogs understand innately.  If these two dogs found
themselves in the "wild" with no human interference, the adult dog
would let the puppy know who's in charge, and the puppy would come to
respect the adult and they would do just fine together.

Think about wolf packs. Everyone has a place but the adults don't have
to kill or really injure the babies to teach them a lesson. They just
let them know firmly when they have crossed the line. It's an
unmistakable lesson.

The problem comes in when soft-hearted people get involved.  We put
our feelings into dogs' heads and try to make up for a dog being
treated badly. We somehow think that everyone is suppose to be equal.
Every time your big dog snaps at your little dog, everyone scolds the
older dog  and scoops up and fusses over the puppy, right?

What message are the dogs getting now? The older dog is getting
reprimanded for something it does naturally. She's confused.  The
puppy is getting back-up from the rest of the "pack" (in this case the
humans) and is getting a message that the older dog really isn't the
one in charge, so it continues to think it can challenge the older
dog. This makes him more likely to challenge the Ridgeback and more
likely to get hurt. He's getting the wrong message here.

The answer is, LET THEM WORK IT OUT. 

You must consistently treat the Ridgeback as the number one dog. She
is the ranking female and your puppy needs to know this. Always give
her priority. Feed her first. Let her through the door first. Put her
on the leash to walk first. And by all means, let her put the puppy in
its place when the puppy approaches her food or her toys.  In other
words, treat her like the queen – not like the criminal.

Then treat the puppy as the bottom of the pack (at least below the
Ridgeback, not the humans). Make the puppy wait for his food. Have him
wait outside the door while you let the older dog in. Feed him after
the big dog. If the Ridgeback normally sleeps in your bedroom, make
the puppy sleep in the hall. Whatever it takes, you must make sure
that the whole household gives this puppy the unanimous message that
he is not as high-ranking as the Ridgeback.

Yes it sounds painful, but it is a message all dogs understand. Do
this consistently and your puppy will quickly (you'll be surprised by
how fast) come to understand his place in the pack, and there will be
no more friction between the two dogs. Guaranteed.

Now, I will insert one caveat here before closing. These dogs need to
have space to work this out – physical space. If they are enclosed in
a small room or pen, your puppy could be seriously hurt because it has
nowhere to retreat to. The Ridgeback has an idea in her head about how
far away she wants this puppy, and if he can't get there, she will
keep attacking.  So please make sure they each have the freedom to get
away from each other, okay? I don't want anyone getting hurt!

That’s all from me. I'm sure your dogs will do great together once
everyone knows where he or she stands.

Oh, and just so you know, I didn't search online for your answer. I
used my own experience -- 8 years working in a veterinary hospital, a
degree in animal behavior, and have worked with and trained my share
of dogs over 20 years.

Thanks for your question – 

-K~

PS – is your screen name from the Princess Bride? :-)

Request for Answer Clarification by asuwhish-ga on 29 Apr 2003 17:53 PDT
this problem is far more severe than your answer.  My female is very
dominant, but has never been vicious like this with any animal.  We
are talking taking the puppy into her jowls and tossing him like a
toy.  this is not the usual pecking order type of problem...we have
lots of space, but cannot leave the 2 of them in the yard together, or
house, or anywhere.  we have had the older female relearning some of
her training so she doesn't think she is alpha, either my husband or I
are....this still hasn't helped the situation.

Request for Answer Clarification by asuwhish-ga on 29 Apr 2003 17:55 PDT
i don't want you to think I am ungrateful, but I have owned many
dogs...this is much more worse than you think.  My older female has
been in training again to let her know she is not alpha, either myself
or husband is.  She attacks this puppy to KILL IT, no provacation.

Clarification of Answer by knowledge_seeker-ga on 30 Apr 2003 15:51 PDT
Hi again asuwhish-ga,

Wow .. you really ARE talking about a serious situation! 

I'm not sure if you are going to be able to resolve it without the
help of a professional trainer – someone who can come to your house
and coach you while watching your dogs interact.

Your Ridgeback sounds like she takes her dominance seriously and I'm
not convinced that she is ever going to let another dog into the pack.
You didn't mention whether or not she was spayed, but that could be a
factor as well. Unspayed females can be very aggressive.

Adding to your problem down the road is the fact that Chows are an
extremely aggressive and dominating breed as well. Your puppy isn't
going to back down as he gets older, he's going to become more
assertive and exacerbate the problem.

Your only choice may be to get rid of the puppy or keep them
permanently separated.

What I've done here is compile a few resources that might help you. 

After doing a great deal of reading, I found this series of columns by
trainer Kathy Diamond Davis.  Wow, does this lady know her stuff!  I
am completely impressed by her common-sense approach to dog behavior. 
I've selected a few of her columns (below) that I think are
appropriate to your case, but you may want to read through more. She
truly understands the way a dog's mind works and provides practical
and realistic ideas for solving difficulties.

=======================================
THE CANINE BEHAVIOR SERIES
By Kathy Diamond Davis;  Author and Trainer 

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=SRC&S=1&SourceID=47
 
========================================

"In the event there is a declaration of all-out war by one or more of
the dogs, crates can be helpful. The safest way to separate two dogs
with crates is to use TWO crates. One dog can be out running around
while the other is crated. Crate the loose dog in the second crate
BEFORE you release the crated dog. When the dogs are both completely
calm around each other with one of them crated, you may be ready to
try a further introduction in an open area. "


Introducing Your Dog to Other Animals
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=1384

-----------------------

"…every dog fight your dog experiences creates the risk that he will
be even worse in the future. He could get so bad that you couldn't
even train him to obey you in the presence of other dogs, because all
he would want to do is attack."

Sudden Dog Aggression in a Rottie
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=1048

---------------------

"…Some people do live with some of their dogs kept permanently
separated from each other. It's a routine lifestyle that works for
many people."

Dogs Fighting
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=1012

------------------------

" Please do not label this female dog who killed another female dog as
being "vicious." This was an instinctive behavior based on the
situation. This is, unfortunately, a common consequence when owners
keep dogs together who have previously fought with injury. This is not
the dog's fault, and does not predict aggression toward humans.

Having too many dogs living together and not using crates or runs to
keep them separated for part or all of the time, is very stressful for
the dogs. How many is "too many" depends on the dogs."


Fatal Pack Order Fighting
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=916

---------------------

" Ask your vet to recommend a behavior specialist who can meet with
you and your dog and evaluate the situation. … …. Aggression does tend
to get progressively worse. An expert in person may be able to tell
you how likely it is that you can get the aggression under control. It
will be a big training task, and you'll always have to be careful
about having the dog around other people and animals."

Aggressive Dalmation
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=891&S=1&SourceID=47



========================
OTHER RESOURCES
========================

General Information About Aggressive Behavior in Dogs
http://www.scvhumane.org/behavior/dog/dog_agg.htm


"If your dog provokes serious fights or draws blood, intervene
immediately. Consult a trainer or behaviorist for positive
reinforcement exercises to correct the problem."

Curbing Dog Aggression in Public
http://www.sfspca.org/behavior/curbing_agg.shtml



INTRODUCING YOUR NEW DOG TO YOUR OTHER FAMILY DOGS
http://www.saveapet.co.za/introducing_your_new_dog.htm


Dog bite liability
http://www.iii.org/individuals/homei/tips/dogbiteliability/


======================

So, that should give you some further resources. I hope things work
out for you and your "pack."  Just remember, ensuring the safety of
that puppy may preclude you being able to keep him. Not a great result
for you as I imagine you're pretty attached to him, but as I have
always said --  "You have to do right by the dog."

Best of luck to you asuwhish –

-K~

search terms

dog aggression "other dogs"
Comments  
Subject: Re: dogs agressive behavior
From: rissos-ga on 29 Apr 2003 01:18 PDT
 
I can’t add anything other than to completely agree with
knowledge-seeker. I have always had dogs and have frequently witnessed
this behaviour. They WILL sort it out, provided they are left alone
and given time to do so, and as soon as the puppy knows its place
everything will calm down.
Subject: Re: dogs agressive behavior
From: steph53-ga on 29 Apr 2003 14:24 PDT
 
Years ago I had a problem with an older/younger dog but it wasn't the
same .

We had a 5 yr old Boxer/Lab mix female ( spayed ) ( huge dog ) , when
we acquired an abandoned 14 week old Border Collie/mix female. They
got along great and the older dog took to the role of "mothering" the
little one.
However, after we had the younger dog spayed ( late at 13 months old )
all h-ll broke lose!!! The two dogs immediatley attacked each other,
to the point both were bleeding. We had to pull them apart with
chairs. Thoroughly shocked and scared, we kept them apart for a few
days. Then we slowly reintroduced them with both wearing muzzles. This
seemed to be fine, as their tails wagged when they began sniffing each
other.
Thinking all was well, and the first incident was just a one time
thing, we pulled off their muzzles & let them lose in the backyard.
What a mistake!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A repeat of the first only worse. They
were actually fighting to the death!!!! We used pepper spray, water,
chairs, NOTHING would loosen the small dog's teeth off the big dog's
throat. There was blood everywhere!!!!
When we did finally separate them, we immediatley took one dog each to
separate rooms, and cleaned the bites as best as we could.
We called the vet who did the spay procedure on the younger dog, but
he could not give any explanation to this sudden aggressive behavior.
Sadly, we had to give the younger dog up to a home with no other
animals. We were heartbroken and to this day I have no idea why they
suddenly went at each other like that.

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