Dear Expert,

Our website www.stardvr.com was having great success in google until a
few days ago when it was removed completely from the directory. We
were coming up #1 and #2 in allot of the appropriate categories.
We have not changed much, only added a few pages. Even some of our
customer's who use our item numbers do not come up anymore. All the
information was removed.
Was the site/item numbers banned? I have read many articles on
"banned" websites, but I cannot match the answers to my problem. We do
not spam, or have any adult content.

Thank you for your time.

Best regards,

Moe

---

Request for Question Clarification by aceresearcher-ga on 23 May 2003 11:03 PDT

Greetings, moe!

Please bear in mind that Google Answers Researchers are independent
contractors who do not have inside information on the workings of the
Googlebot and Google. This information is highly confidential, and
Google does not release much of it to the public. However, it is
believed that some details of the algorithm have been figured out by
webmasters who spend a great deal of time investigating and
experimenting with how the the Googlebot behaves, so sometimes we are
able to help shed some light for people who pose this Question.

However, when it comes to your website, I'm mystified, and since none
of the other Researchers has grabbed your Question, it looks like I am
not the only one. Frequently, when a website drops in the Google
rankings, it is still possible to find some clues by researching with
the Google Search Engine. When that fails, often using AllTheWeb (
http://www.alltheweb.com ) will reveal some clues. However, in your
case, as far as I can see neither of those, nor any of the other items
at which I have looked, shows ANYTHING that might offer enlightenment
as to the source of your problem.

In the last few months, have you done any of the following? 
 
- changed your website 
- added links to your website 
- gotten someone else to add your link to their website 
- added one or more separate "mirror" sites that are nearly 
  identical to your original site?
- purchased software or used services which provide SEO 
  (Search Engine Optimization) such as auto-submittal to 
  Search Engines, auto-rank-checking, link exchanges, etc? 
- anything else of which you can think?
 
For any of these things which you *have* done, if you can provide
specific details (what changes, which links, what other websites, what
software or services, etc), it will assist Researchers to better
Answer your Question.
 
Thanks, 
 
aceresearcher

---

Request for Question Clarification by mvguy-ga on 23 May 2003 12:59 PDT

Or is it possible that your site wasn't functioning for some period of
time? If the site was down at the time the spider was visiting, that
could cause obvious problems.

---

Request for Question Clarification by serenata-ga on 26 May 2003 23:06 PDT

Hi, Moe:

You said your site was "having great success in [G]oogle until a few
days ago", yet a look at the Wayback Machine doesn't show your site at
all, even though it has records archived from as recently as earlier
this month.

How long had your site been in Google, and what are the "appropriate
categories" you are referring to?

I can give you some vague ideas right now what and why your site has
dropped off Google, but the answers to those questions will help
formulate a good answer and some remedies which will help you.

Thanks,
Serenata

---

Request for Question Clarification by aceresearcher-ga on 27 May 2003 01:54 PDT

Moe,

What are the other URLs of the sites which you say have also
disappeared from Google?

Thanks,

ace

Hi Moe:

Please remember that Google Answers Researchers are independent
contractors and are not privy to the inner workings of Google. We
don't have insider information about its closely-guarded algorithms.
The answers we give you here is valid information provided by Google
and other experts in the field of search engine optimization.

A listing in Google is not guaranteed. Google's responsibility is to
those using its search engine to find information. Google enjoys a
number one ranking because it is known for delivering "relevant"
information when its users enter a search term. This relevancy is
acquired through an entirely objective algorithm which they're not
inclined to share with anyone else, and which they change and 'tweak'
to continually improve their service to their users.

Having said that and doing a check of your Website (stardvr.com), I
can offer the following information and suggestions.


Previous Google Listing:
========================

I checked your site on All The Web. All the web shows only two
external pages, both on Eclipse CCTV, which link to your site. Both
those links are graphic links with no ALT tags included within the
images.

You said, "Our website www.stardvr.com was having great success in
google until a few days ago when it was removed completely from the
directory. We were coming up #1 and #2 in allot of the appropriate
categories."

You did not indicate WHEN you had listed your site with Google, nor
what you meant when you said you were "having great success in
Google"; however, a check of your keyword metatag would indicate you
might consider "dvr cards" as an "appropriate category". I will
discuss the metatag and site content below, but I couldn't find your
site using "dvr cards".

Using the Wayback Machine, your site was not listed, and Google does
not have your page in its cache, so I was not able to look at your
previous design to compare it with your present design.
 - http://www.alltheweb.com/


Other Search Engine Listings:
=============================

A search in the Open Directory (DMOZ) revealed no listing for your
site. A search on the following search engine produced the followng
results:

  Altavista.com - Your site is listed and show the two Eclipse CCTV
links to your site
  Hotbot/Lycos - Your site is listed
  Netscape - Your site is not listed
  Yahoo - Your site is not listed
  Msn - Your site is not listed

Google specifically suggests listing your site in DMOZ and Yahoo,

"you may want to consider submitting your site to either or both of
these directories. You can submit to Yahoo! by visiting
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/suggest/. You can submit your site to
Netscape's Open Directory Project (DMOZ) by visiting www.dmoz.org.
Once your site is included in either of these directories, Google will
often index your site within six to eight weeks."
(See: 2. What else can I do to get listed in Google?)
 - ://www.google.com/webmasters/1.html#A1

If you haven't done so, you should - if only to increase your chances
of a listing in Google.


Recent Changes After Last Crawl:
================================

It seems apparent that Google has recently changed its algorithm, and
many sites have either been dropped from Google's listings or have
severely dropped in page ranking.

There have been dozens of queries to Google Answers:
 - ://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=dropped+from+Google&btnG=Google+Search

Discussions in WebMaster World:
 - http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/13462.htm
 - http://www.webmasterworld.com/forum3/13462-4-15.htm#msg

And an ongoing discussion in Adventive Media's Link Exchange Digest
(LED) discussion list, with contributions by some of the acknowledged
site engine "gurus".
 - http://list.adventive.com/SCRIPTS/WA.EXE?A1=ind0305&L=led


Putting all this information together, it seems Google is penalizing
those who are using certain "tools" or "tricks" to enhance their
listings, and are using a stricter set of "guidelines" to list sites
at all.


Why Your Listing Was Dropped:
=============================

I cannot tell you exactly why your listing was dropped from Google. In
fact, Google will not tell you why they dropped your site. In its
explanation under "My Site Used To Be Listed But Now It Isn't", Google
says, " We will not comment on the individual reasons a page was
removed and we do not offer an exhaustive list of practices that can
cause removal." (See: "No. 3 Other Reasons")
 - ://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html#usedtobe

The most obvious reason would seem to be that your site contains
nothing for the Googlebot to index.

This may seem a shocking statement, but looking at the code for your
home page, index.htm, I find the following:

1. Site Navigation:
===================

In its "Design and Content Guidelines", Google states, "Make a site
with a clear hierarchy and text links. Every page should be reachable
from at least one static text link." (See: Google Information for
Webmasters, Design and Content Guidelines")
 - ://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html

You do have a navigation system which consists of graphic "buttons",
and while they do link to other pages of your site, there are no ALT
tags to indicate where those buttons go.

2. Content:
===========

So far as any web crawler is concerned, your page has no content, as
there are only image maps with coordinates and links, but no ALT tags
to describe what is contained in the graphics.

Google states,

   "Think about the words users would type
    to find your pages, and make sure that
    your site actually includes those words 
    within it."

   "Try to use text instead of images to 
    display important names, content, or 
    links. The Google crawler doesn't 
    recognize text contained in images."

   "Make sure that your TITLE and ALT 
    tags are descriptive and accurate." 
 
Google also suggests, "Use a text browser such as Lynx to examine your
site, because most search engine spiders see your site much as Lynx
would..."
 
Putting your page through Lynx, the first encounter one comes to text
is at the bottom where it says, "Please click here to request catalog
and information about our Security dvr boards and DVR systems".

This is neither "rich text" nor the type of relevancy Google is
looking for.


3. Other Reasons:
=================

In "My Web Pages Are Not Currently Listed", Google cites other reasons
your listing may have disappeared:
 - ://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html#usedtobe

 * Your site wasn't reachable.
 * A temporary glitch.
 * A change in content.

While you did say you made some changes to your page, that probably
isn't the reason your listing was dropped. The most likely is the
perceived lack of relevant content to support a listing in Google.


Getting Listed in Google:
=========================

A. The Basics:

1. Keyword Metatags:

With the possible exception of Inktomi, most search engines no longer
place a high emphasis on metatags. It used to be very easy to "stuff"
a page containing very little relevant content with copious metatags
to attain a higher listing. It happened often enough that they no
longer count for much and can hurt you if you have a heavy metatag
load with little or no content to mirror those tags.

In your case, the keywords metatag reads, "dvr cards"; and the
description metatag (which used to be what search engines would use
for a site description) reads, "DVR cards for all security needs,
digital video recorders, dvr, cctv recorder, security recorder,
computer dvr, stand alone dvr,standalone dvr,embedded software dvr, pc
based dvr, dvr cards, pci cards."

Yet within the content on your first page of your site, the word these
words only appear in the text at the bottom of the page, as I
mentioned above.

There is a suggestion that loading metatag content that does not
reflect your page content can be considered spamming. Here are some
relevant articles about loading the metatags with content which does
NOT appear on your page:

Shari Thurow's "Search Engine Spamming Affects Us All"
 - http://www.highrankings.com/issue028.htm#ses

SearchDay - "The Search Engine Spam Police, Part 1" - 29 May 2002,
Chris Sherman
 - http://www.searchenginewatch.com/searchday/article.php/2160011

SearchDay - "The Search Engine Spam Police, Part 2" - 30 May 2002,
Chris Sherman
 - http://www.searchenginewatch.com/searchday/article.php/2160021

SearchDay - "The Search Engine Spam Police, Part 3" - 31 May 2002,
Chris Sherman
 - http://www.searchenginewatch.com/searchday/article.php/2159061


Content, Content, Content:
==========================

If you want your site to be indexed and found using the terms in your
keyword or description metatags, make sure you have TEXT content which
will reflect those terms. You may want to be listed under the term
"dvr cards" - and there are currently about 27,000 pages listed under
that term - and take a look at those listed in the first 5 or 10 pages
have page content generously using that term in text.

Google suggests, "Create a useful, information-rich site and write
pages that clearly and accurately describe your content."

and "Think about the words users would type to find your pages, and
make sure that your site actually includes those words within it."  If
Google suggests, it pays to listen. (See: Webmaster Guidelines)
 - ://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html


Links:
======

Google's listings are based primarily on it's Pagerank system. The
more "relevant" sites that link to yours, the better your page rank in
Google.

Avoid linking schemes, and try to get listed in sites which are not
related to yours.


Other Search Engines:
=====================

Submit your site, as Google suggests, to DMOZ and Yahoo.


Page Design:
============

Google recommends designing your site for the user, not for search
engines. Your site is designed using Front Page. Front page tends to
throw in some proprietary coding which does not show up in other
browsers. You may want to check your site's coding in the W3C
validator and perfect the code. The URL for the validator is here:
 - http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator-uri.html


Summary:
========

No Google Answers Researcher can tell you why your site was delisted
(or unlisted) from Google. On the other hand, given the recent
discussions on the sites as noted above, the most probable reason is:

1. Lack of rich content on the site;
2. Lack of ALT tags and a text navigation system; 
3. Lack of links TO your site; and
4. "Possible" spamming the keyword metatags.


To increase your chances of getting listed:
1. "Make a site with a clear hierarchy and text links. Every page
should be reachable from at least one static text link."
2. "Create a useful, information-rich site and write pages that
clearly and accurately describe your content."
3. "Think about the words users would type to find your pages, and
make sure that your site actually includes those words within it.
4. "Try to use text instead of images to display important names,
content, or links. The Google crawler doesn't recognize text contained
in images."
5. "Make sure that your TITLE and ALT tags are descriptive and
accurate."
(the above from Google's Webmaster Guidelines)
 - ://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html

6. Submit your site to relevant directories such as the Open Directory
Project and Yahoo.
7. Make sure those who should know about your site do and ensure your
reciprocal links are relevant.
8. Don't use link schemes and programs.


A Word About Site Submission Software:
======================================

Google specifically mentions in its "Technical Guidelines", "Don't use
unauthorized computer programs to submit pages, check rankings, etc.
Such programs consume computing resources and violate our terms of
service. Google does not recommend the use of products such as
WebPosition Gold™ that send automatic or programmatic queries to
Google."
 - ://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html

To use those is also against its Terms of Service (TOS), which reads:

"You may not send automated queries of any sort to Google's system
without express permission in advance from Google. Note that "sending
automated queries" includes, among other things:
* using any software which sends queries to Google to determine how a
website or webpage "ranks" on Google for various queries;
* "meta-searching" Google; and
* performing "offline" searches on Google.
 - ://www.google.com/terms_of_service.html


When You're Ready to Resubmit:
==============================

When you've corrected the site and are ready to resubmit, you can use
Google's Add URL page:
 - ://www.google.com/addurl.html


Search Terms Used:
 - Google submission advice
 - Google Answers + site dropped
 - Google Page Rank
 - Effective Site design
 - Search Engine Optimization (optimisation)
 - Google Terms of Service


I know if you follow the Guidelines you stand a good chance of being
relisted in Google.

Good luck,
Serenata

I would check to make sure you don't have any extraneous text with the
same foreground and same background color characters.  If you
highlight the text on the right and on the bottom, there are some
extraneous space characters.  In general, it doesn't like same
foreground and same background color text, since that's seen as
keyword spamming.  Don't know if that applies in your circumstances,
but it's always worth a look.  Also, look for repetitious link
patterns.

Hello Ace,

I Did make a few changes to the stardvr site in the way of adding a
few pages and correcting specifications on the products. No major
changes have been made. I still come up on other search engines not
associated with Google. As far as other sites adding us to their
pages, many of the installers that buy our products also add our part
numbers and descriptions to their sites. That is the most interesting
part of this, their sites are also gone from Google. I thought our
site could have been down during a crawl, but if all information has
been removed, it is too much evidence pointing to a different problem.
I hope this helps. I also read about competitors doing something to
get us banned, like over submitting our site, but they say that Google
does not work like that.

Thank you,

Moe

I can't figure it. There's no way I'll post this as an answer, becaue
I really hope it isn't true.

I've noticed in the past that in general you get a PR of zero for
doing one thing wrong, and removed from the index for multiple
naughties. The Google software seems to look for multiple indicators
of trying to cheat the system. If it was having an off day, and I mean
a really really bad off day, it might decide these are negative:

Link farming: you link to www.eclipsecctv.com, it links back to you.
AND, using the same contact form.
Duplicate content: other sites like www.sharpvisioncctv.com mentioning
your part number.

If you let me know the URLs of the other sites mentioning your part
number, it might help.

I'm going for the combo of the same contact form and reciprocal links,
which is something I do on my sites, so I hope it isn't true.

NOTE: If it's a glitch, there's a good chance you'll be back in the
index next month. Definitely re-submit your site. Over-submitting your
site will not get you banned.

I did not find anything wrong with my site. Does anyone have any othe comments?

Thanks,

Moe