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Q: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"? ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   13 Comments )
Question  
Subject: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
Category: Relationships and Society > Religion
Asked by: toughlover-ga
List Price: $2.00
Posted: 02 Jun 2003 13:55 PDT
Expires: 02 Jul 2003 13:55 PDT
Question ID: 212105
The example often offered of "U.L." are pets.  Does anyone believe
that if you starve and beat your pet, it will still love you?  I gess
if one were to beat the sences out of your kid such that he suffers
amnesia he might still love you, but no animal form with atinture of
cognition will exhibit love in return for cruelty.

The Inventor of love Himself, so loved the world that he sent his only
Begotten Son..., but the condition is that you "believe upon him".

I believe this notion was promulgated by one of our DEVIANT HEDONISTS
GROUPS who wanted to secure for themself acceptance regardless of
their actions.
Answer  
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
Answered By: pinkfreud-ga on 02 Jun 2003 15:26 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
Thank you for accepting my remarks as an answer to your question.

Far from being Biblical, the term "unconditional love" was coined by
Erich Fromm, an atheist:
 
..."unconditional love" has become a meaningless slogan of the
Oprah/Jerry Springer world, a pseudo-insight sprayed over a banal
commonplace.

Coined by German psychoanalyst Erich Fromm in 1934, the concept was
developed in his 1956 book, The Art Of Loving. Fromm naively believed
that a father's love was always conditional - upon success, good
behaviour, etc - while a mother's was unconditional, and couldn't be
forfeited by sins or transgression. His ideas were refined in the
1960s by the humanist psychologist Carl Rogers, who suggested that
therapists should try and offer their clients "unconditional positive
regard". Through this unjudgmental acceptance, the client would
integrate the unwanted parts of their personality and become more
self-accepting.

Guardian Unlimited
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,854257,00.html 
 
Another man who helped form modern psychology is Erick Fromm. It was
from Fromm that we got the phrase "unconditional love." He rejected
all forms of authoritarian government including God's. He portrayed
the God of the Old Testament as a self-seeking authoritarian. He was
an atheist and argued against the fundamentals of the Christian faith.
He believed that man is the measure of all things. He did not oppose
religion as long as it was subjective. He taught that a person must
love himself, accept himself, and esteem himself in order to reach his
highest potential. He did not see love as coming from outside himself.
He said, "I am loved because I love."

Fromm describes a truly religious person as one who does not pray for
anything and does not expect anything from God. He says that a truly
religious person does not love God as a child loves his father or his
mother. And so from Fromm's point of view, faith in God is replaced by
faith in self, and love for God is replaced by love for self.

Revival Sermons
http://www.revivalsermons.org/sermons/broken_cisterns.shtml

My search for the origin of this phrase was simplified by the fact
that I used to be an admirer of Erich Fromm, and I was aware that
Fromm, not the Holy Bible, brought the term "unconditional love" into
the world.

Here is the search string that gave me the best results:

Google Web Search: "erich fromm" "unconditional love"
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22erich+fromm%22+%22unconditional+love
 
This was an interesting subject, and I'm glad to have been able to
help you find the source of the pernicious term "unconditional love."
In my view, our society has been dealt a terrible blow by Fromm and
his followers (which, I am sorry to say, included me, in earlier
years, when I was indeed "pinko" politically.) I find it very
disturbing that even ministers of the Gospel often promote this
unBiblical notion.

Best regards,
pinkfreud
toughlover-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars and gave an additional tip of: $2.00
Thanks for the great research and elaberation on this question Pink
Freud... when I win the latto I will "smoke you out and bring justice
to you":)

Comments  
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: thx1138-ga on 02 Jun 2003 14:07 PDT
 
toughlover-ga: 
"I believe this notion was promulgated by one of our DEVIANT HEDONISTS
GROUPS who wanted to secure for themself acceptance regardless of
their actions."

It seems you might be absolutley correct.............


"Scripture clearly teaches that God's love (phileo, agape, aheb,
ahabah, etc.) is unfailing, undeserved, and unilateral (completely
one-sided in initiation). But is God's love without condition--I.E.:
UN-conditional?
On this we should consider three things. 1) Where did this idea come
from?...."

"In fact, my best efforts point to the 1960s drug culture as the first
time the words unconditional and love were put together in any
language. (Please correct me if you can produce an example before the
hippies coined the term, but so far nobody has; and my own research
points to the LSD culture of the 1960s as the first use.)"
http://www.acts17-11.com/cows_unlove.html

Good luck in your quest...

THX1138
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: journalist-ga on 02 Jun 2003 14:31 PDT
 
I believe it was parents that thought it up.  ;)
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: toughlover-ga on 02 Jun 2003 14:32 PDT
 
Thanks for the feed-back Thx1138-ga, I did not know what you revealed,
I just had a nawing feeling that the expression was a jonnycome lately
and without merit.
Now I hear even one of my favorite POTOS's, GW; employing this
misnomer in his speaches.
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: pinkfreud-ga on 02 Jun 2003 14:43 PDT
 
Far from being Biblical, the term "unconditional love" was coined by
Erich Fromm, an atheist:

..."unconditional love" has become a meaningless slogan of the
Oprah/Jerry Springer world, a pseudo-insight sprayed over a banal
commonplace.

Coined by German psychoanalyst Erich Fromm in 1934, the concept was
developed in his 1956 book, The Art Of Loving. Fromm naively believed
that a father's love was always conditional - upon success, good
behaviour, etc - while a mother's was unconditional, and couldn't be
forfeited by sins or transgression. His ideas were refined in the
1960s by the humanist psychologist Carl Rogers, who suggested that
therapists should try and offer their clients "unconditional positive
regard". Through this unjudgmental acceptance, the client would
integrate the unwanted parts of their personality and become more
self-accepting.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,854257,00.html

Another man who helped form modern psychology is Erick Fromm. It was
from Fromm that we got the phrase "unconditional love." He rejected
all forms of authoritarian government including God's. He portrayed
the God of the Old Testament as a self-seeking authoritarian. He was
an atheist and argued against the fundamentals of the Christian faith.
He believed that man is the measure of all things. He did not oppose
religion as long as it was subjective. He taught that a person must
love himself, accept himself, and esteem himself in order to reach his
highest potential. He did not see love as coming from outside himself.
He said, "I am loved because I love."

Fromm describes a truly religious person as one who does not pray for
anything and does not expect anything from God. He says that a truly
religious person does not love God as a child loves his father or his
mother. And so from Fromm's point of view, faith in God is replaced by
faith in self, and love for God is replaced by love for self.

http://www.revivalsermons.org/sermons/broken_cisterns.shtml
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: toughlover-ga on 02 Jun 2003 14:54 PDT
 
Great work El Pinko, re-constitute your comment into an answer and you
have earned my 5 STARS...
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: kriswrite-ga on 02 Jun 2003 15:11 PDT
 
<<<The Inventor of love Himself, so loved the world that he sent his
only
Begotten Son..., but the condition is that you "believe upon him".>>>

Actually, that assumption is incorrect. The Bible does teach that
God's love is unconditional...however, God loves us whether or not we
believe in Him.

kriswrite
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: toughlover-ga on 02 Jun 2003 16:53 PDT
 
Thanks for the comment, KrisWrite, 

Show me, show me. Gimme chapter and verse.

If you don't believe you have ho calim to eternal life, is the way I
read it. Tell me what you have been smo, I mean reading?

Tell me how much God loves the devel and when is the re-union. Much is
hinging on your revelation to the world...
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: filian-ga on 02 Jun 2003 17:02 PDT
 
"Thanks for the comment, KrisWrite,  
Show me, show me. Gimme chapter and verse. 
If you don't believe you have ho calim to eternal life, is the way I
read it. Tell me what you have been smo, I mean reading?
Tell me how much God loves the devel and when is the re-union. Much is
hinging on your revelation to the world..."

This comment sounds hostile. My opinion is that if we are talking
about Christian God then believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins
is the way to Paradise because it is through that sacrifice that we
are cleansed of sins. Without believing that we are 1) sinful and 2)
needed to be cleansed and 3) Jesus was the cleanser, we have rejected
that we are unclean to begin with and assert that we need no cleansing
therefore no cleaning can be performed.

Overall it is not as much believing that Jesus Christ is perfect as
admitting we are not perfect. Very few people want to say that about
themselves; they do not want to call their actions sinful for a
variety of reasons.

Are actions sinful because one believes them to be so? That remains a
question.

But ultimately Paradise is denied to those who do not choose it. If
Paradise is a Christian God concept, and one does not believe in
Christian God, then there is no Christian Paradise for that person in
existence. So they will not go there. And that is the definition of
Hell. Separation from Christian God (Who is also described as Love).
The separation from God/Love is Hell. But if a person doesn't believe
in God, they should not have a problem being separated from Him if He
does exist because they wanted nothing to do with Him in life.

Therefore, Hell is a choice we make.

That's just how I reckon it.
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: toughlover-ga on 02 Jun 2003 18:19 PDT
 
Ok Filian, I prostrate myself before you in Sackcloth and Ashes, for I
have sinned against KrisWrite, though my intent was more like
good-natured jousting.

Now let me turn my attention to your comments.  Let's call time out. 
Sir, permission requested to chew out the general, Sir.  Now do I have
permission to zing you to my hearts content before we step back
inside?
 Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.

Your presentment was substantive and scholarly but attempting to allow
for views that are outside of the belief in jeasus or even God.  My
discussions do not countenance Atheist and Nnon Christians, inasmuch
as that would require that I first debate and convince that set of
people, before I could move to the topic at hand.

Obviously nobody could ever make any statement that could satisfy all
elements of all societies.
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: bebop-ga on 03 Jun 2003 14:38 PDT
 
A lot of people say "unconditional love" while confusing love for
tolerance.  Parental love, for instance, is (supposed to be)
unconditional, and they will love you whatever you do.  But they will
not tolerate everything you do.  In fact, if they were to look the
other way as you destroy yourself and others, that would not be love
at all.

Kriswrite wrote that: "The Bible does teach that God's love is
unconditional...however, God loves us whether or not we believe in
Him."

Here are some passages that support that view:
- Matthew 5:43-48. "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your
neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and
pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father
in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and
sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who
love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors
doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing
more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore,
as your heavenly Father is perfect."

- Luke 23:33-34 "When they came to the place called the Skull, there
they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the
other on his left. Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not
know what they are doing.'"

- Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While
we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

God, who is perfect, loves his enemies.  Jesus prayed for those who
were crucifying him.  Christ loved us enough to die for us, before we
had believed (while we were still sinners).

I know there are people more familiar with the Bible who can find even
more passages, but I just wanted to defend this belief.
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: pinkfreud-ga on 05 Jun 2003 08:28 PDT
 
Thank you very much for the tip!

~pinkfreud
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: pugwashjw-ga on 26 Jun 2003 01:26 PDT
 
The question as to whether God loves us with/without conditions is
answered by himself through the apostle Peter., Have a look at second
Peter chapter 3 verse 9...Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise,
as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because
he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to
repentance.
It depends on our behaviour whether or not we are punished [
destroyed] So there is a punishment coming. Examples are found in the
Hebrew scriptures such as when Moses came down off the mountain and
found many of the Israelites worshipping a golden calf. They were
punished very dramatically. Moses himself certainly did not have the
power to open up the earth as described in the Bible. And if it was
only a local earthquake, which I certainly do not believe, it sure was
one tremendous coincidence. And what about second Kings 19;35, On one
night, the Angel of Jehovah "proceeded to go out and strike down a
hundred and eighty five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. when
people rose up early in the morning , why, there all of them were dead
carcasses. God does impose conditions. And they are all in print..In
the Bible
Subject: Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: amalik-ga on 30 Oct 2003 12:13 PST
 
Although the phrase "unconditional love" may have been coined by a
western psychologist, from the tenor of your question I take it you
are interested also in the religous origin of the concept of divine
love.  For this, you need to turn to India.

[Note: I shall try to cite primary documents rather than web site
interpretations because as in all matters of religon (or any other
controversial subject), relying on Internet web sites is a dicey
proposition.  Also note that this is a very condensed history of the
origin of an extremely important idea - so I've left out a great deal.
 I rely on an academic web-site in this discussion, The Indian History
Sourcebook (see citation 1)].

Among the three oldest surviving religons: australian aborigine, the
Hebrew Bible, and the Hindu Vedas, sacrifice is prominent in the
latter two  (I leave out the oldest religon, the Bear cult as it only
survives on one remote island in Japan where it is practiced by the
Ainu).  It is through sacrifice that one invokes and appeases the
divine. (See citation 2).

Then came Buddha and challenged the reigning Vedic orthodoxy. [See
citation 3]

 In response to the popularity of Buddhism, Hinduism adopted two
approaches.

The first was to declare Buddha the ninth incarnation of an already
existing Hindu god, Lord Vishnu    This is of course a very clever
response to a challenge posed by a new religon.  The two reasons
Vishnu is supposed to have incarnated as Buddha were :
a) to teach the end of animal sacrifice,
b) convince demons to stop worshiping Lord Shiva
[see Citation 4].

Of course the Buddhists were not amused.

The second response was the writing of the Bhagavad-Gita in which
sacrifice was no longer the principal way of invoking the gods.  It
was devotion. Love. Unconditional  [see Citation 5]

Please read citation 5 before continuing.

You will note the parallels with Christianity.  You may also note that
the name Krishna sounds an awful lot like Christ.  This coincidence
has lead to a lot of unscholarly speculation as to the origins of
Christianity for which there is no evidence.

In summary, the oldest religous practices emphasized sacrifice. With
the challenge posed by Buddhism, Hinduism reformed itself and
emphasized devotion as a route to immortality.

I hope this answer is helpful, although it does not confirm your
initial hypothesis concerning "deviant hedonists groups".

-- --amalik-ga


---------------------------------------------------------

Citation 1
The Indian History Sourcebook
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/india/indiasbook.html#The%20Vedic%20Age

Citation 2
http://alexm.here.ru/mirrors/www.enteract.com/jwalz/Eliade/137.html

HYMNS TO AGNI
i. I praise Agni, domestic priest, divine minister of sacrifice,
Invoker, greatest bestower of wealth.1
ii. Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers:
He shall bring hitherward the gods. 2
vii. To thee, dispeller of the night, 0 Agni, day by day with prayer,
Bringing thee reverence, we come;
viii. Ruler of sacrifices, guard of Law eternal, radiant one,
Increasing in thine own abode.
1 Agni, addressed here in the first of 1028 hymns, is second only to
Indra in Rig Vedic popularity. As 'Fire' cosmic or ritual-his
production, or rather his perpetual regeneration, becomes the subject
of some 200 hymns. Typically, in this first brief stanza he is praised
as domestic priest (purohita), performer (ritvij) of the sacrifice
(yajna), the invoking and reciting priest (hotar), and bestower of
wealth upon his worshippers.
2 Agni not only conveys the ablations to the gods, but brings the gods
to the sacrifice as well.

Citation 3
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCINDIA/ANCINDIA.HTM

Similar to the seekers, who reformed Hinduistic thought, the
individuals responsible for the growth of these new religions came
from the ksatryia caste that sought a release from the brahman's
domination of ritual. Also significant, in this quest for change, were
the members of the vaishya caste. With the collapse of tribalism,
India experienced great material and economic growth from which this
class, which included an increasing number of merchants, craftsmen,
and professional, benefited. Many of the vaishya, therefore, resented
the privileges afforded the upper two castes, which invariably
prepared them for religious ferment.
Most prominent of the two individuals seeking answers to the orthodox
Vedism, and the injustice of the caste system was Siddartha Gautama
(c. 563 BC-483 BC) who founded the religion known as Buddhism.

Citation 4
http://adaniel.tripod.com/incarnations.htm

In his eighth incarnation he was Krishna who helped the right-minded
Pandavas to defeat the villain Kauravas. Krishna is also the
philosopher of the Bhagwad Gita, one of the holiest Hindu texts.
About the ninth incarnation. Two different personalities are
identified as the ninth incarnation of Vishnu. One is Balaram, the
elder brother of Krishna, who like Krishna helped the right-minded
persons to defeat the villians.
The other personality identified as his ninth incarnation is Buddha,
the establisher of Buddhism. Here too, there are two different beliefs
for the purpose of this incarnation. According to one belief Vishnu
incarnated as Buddha to preach non-violence and against animal
sacrificing in religious ceremony. According to other belief, Vishnu
incarnated as Buddha to start a new religion with a specific intention
to convince some demons to give up worshipping Lord Shiva. For, Lord
Shiva protected his worshippers and these demons used this protection
to do whatever they wanted. Buddha convinced them with his new
religion and they stopped worshipping Lord Shiva, which in turn
allowed Shiva to punish them.


Citation 5
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCINDIA/GITA.HTM
Those who being constantly devoted, and possessed of the highest
faith, worship me with a mind fixed on me, are deemed by me to be the
most devoted.
....
Place your mind on me only; fix your understanding on me. In me you
will dwell hereafter, there is no doubt.
...
But those devotees who, imbued with faith, and regarding me as their
highest goal, resort to this holy means for attaining immortality, as
stated, they are the dearest of all to me.

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