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Q: Page Rank going from 3 to 0 ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   0 Comments )
Subject: Page Rank going from 3 to 0
Category: Computers > Internet
Asked by: cypresstom-ga
List Price: $15.00
Posted: 03 Jun 2003 06:30 PDT
Expires: 03 Jul 2003 06:30 PDT
Question ID: 212404
Hello, I was wondering if someone could tell me how my page rank(PR)
on Google could go from a 2-3 to a 0?

Our website is  During this time our PR for
our home page went from a 3 to a 4.  So that was very good.

But, for our bottom tier of pages under our Products & Services the PR
has dropped.  For instance all the pages under Connectors and under
Copper Cables now all have PR's of 0.  They were all at least a 2
previously!  This is absolutely KILLING us on the search engines.  For
things like USB Connectors we were coming up very high, like in the
top 5.  Cell Phone Connectors we were 2, IEEE1394 Connectors we were
also top 5.  We were getting many calls every week, now we get almost

We did do a minor rev and add a page, but did not change those pages
that fell.

What can I do to get our PR back?  I am told Google spiders every
month, but I don't think this is the case.  Our website optimizer
contractor tells me to just wait, but it's been almost 2 months and it
hasn't improved.

When does Google come around?  Do they hit your entire site every
time?  Even the very bottom pages?  Would it behoove me to resubmit
the bottom tier pages that aren't ranked, or could that hurt?

We also added the following page
that is unranked.  Should I submit it?

Actually, the pages under the Connectors category used to all be at
least a
2.  Now they are all a 0.  

The pages under Copper Cables were all at least a 2, now they are all
This does not make any sense to me.
Subject: Re: Page Rank going from 3 to 0
Answered By: mcfly-ga on 03 Jun 2003 12:10 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
Hi Cypress Tom.

Details of the PageRank algorithm are a closely kept secret within
Technical Staff at Google.  However, there are a large number of
resources online for webmasters keen to learn how to succeed in search
engine optimization, and I have determined a likely cause for your PR
problem by using these.

The task of indexing several billion web pages is huge, and
frustrating unexpected behaviour by the PageRank system is commonly
caused by delays in fully indexing a site.  Just running the PageRank
algorithm "for a billion Web pages can take several days", as
discussed in the article below.

EurekAlert! - Google-style Web Rankings

The reduction in PR of the bottom tier of pages in your site is due to
the inherent latency of the ranking system.  When Google indexes your
site, it will not necessarily spider all of your pages in one pass,
but may take 2-3 attempts.  Equally, a separate PR will not initially
be calculated for each page, but that of your index.html will be used.

However, once your site becomes more firmly established in Google, a
PageRank for each page will ultimately be calculated.  Therefore, your
previous high PR on pages three or four tiers into the site will have
resulted from the PR of your front page (currently PR=4).  Dropping to
PR 0 occurred when Google determined a rank for each individual
subsiduary page.

Using your Cell phone Connectors page (PR=0) as an example, searching
for links to
reveals only a single reference.  However, checking your index page
(PR=4) shows approximately 87 incoming links.  You can see why there
is a difference in PR for the two pages!

As a brief aside, to determine the number of links to each particular
page, it is possible to use the search term:  However, this will only return
pages of PR 4 or above.  Searching for the term
"" will return the options:

    * Show Google's cache of
    * Find web pages that are similar to
    * Find web pages that link to
    * Find web pages that contain the term

Click on the bottom option and you will be presented with a fairer
representation of the number of pages linking to

Getting a higher PR for your lower tier pages is a difficult task
given that it is strongly correlated to the number of incoming links
to each page within Google's index.  A PageRank of 4 for your front
page is good enough to gain you second place for a search for 'cypress
industries'.  However, this does not help you much if you are looking
for a higher ranking for search terms such as 'LED cable' and 'cell
phone connectors'.

My suggestion to remedy the situation is therefore as follows. 
Instead of concentrating on raising the PR of each individual bottom
tier page, aim to increase the breadth of keywords which your front
page is relevant to.  Using the Search Engine Spider Simulator at

Search Engine World

it is possible to determine what a typical search spider will make of
your site.  Here is the resulting information gleaned from your

 Cypress Home Products & Services | About Us | Locations | Contact Us
| News | Investor Relations | Careers Now there's a better way  
Explore Cypress by selecting a link See how our new *LED cable* can
save you time and money *Cypress Industries* is an electronics
manufacturing and services company that designs and manufactures
*fiber optic* and *electrical connectors* and *cables*, *custom
tooling* and plastics, power supplies and test fixtures. We also offer
a full range of value-added services including product design,
prototyping, manufacturing, testing, and after-sales support. Our
company is focused on providing the best products, the best service,
and the best value in the industry. Through years of *high-tech
manufacturing* experience, we have learned that there is a better way
to do business. By focusing on you, the customer, and addressing your
specific needs, our goal is to provide not only an efficient
experience, but also a pleasant one. We support the needs of a
diversified customer base including OEMs, contract manufacturers,
telecom companies, P.O.S. companies, distributors and end-users. Home 
 |   Products & Services   |   About Us   |   Locations   |   Contact
Us   |   News   |   Investor Relations   |   Careers 2001 *Cypress
Industries*, 13581 Pond Springs Road #307, Austin TX 78729 ph.
512.249.0999 / fax 512.249.1669 / toll free usa 866.844.6699 /   Site by 10 Sharp Design

Note I have marked useful keywords with a * symbol.  So although you
have given the reader an interesting description of your company,
there is only relatively little use of specific keywords.  It is
unsurprising from the above that Cypress Industries does not come
within the top 10 results for 'cell phone connectors' for example.

Therefore, I suggest that you should increase the volume of
descriptive text on your front page.  Make sure your include all of
the key terms you expect potential customers to search for at least
once.  Do not go to the extreme of spamming the search engine with
keywords as this is heavily frowned upon by Google and may lead to
removal from the index altogether - just think of the search engine
spider as another reader looking for keywords.

Please note that it is an extremely bad idea to 'hide' extra keywords
around the page in size 0 or transparent font.  The Google spider
looks out for this and you would be penalised severely.

Having attracted potential customers to your front page, it is a good
idea to have obvious links to particularly popular products, or those
you are wishing to advertise more strongly.  The use of a direct link
to your LED cable page is a good idea, and will help customers and
search spiders find the page more readily.  Additional direct links to
products such as cell phone connectors would be warranted if they are
an important part of your market.

Now, to answer your other specific questions:

Q: When does Google come around?
A: The Google Spider updates the index approximately once per month,
although an effort is made to crawl sites with rapidly changing
content more frequently.

Q: Do they hit your entire site every time?  Even the very bottom
A: No, not necessarily.  The complexly interlinked nature of the
Internet means that the spider software cannot be guaranteed to crawl
your entire site on every visit, especially not pages in the lower

Q: Would it help me to resubmit the bottom tier pages that aren't
ranked, or could that hurt?
A:  By all means resubmit the bottom tier pages of your site at
:// - this will not damage your chances
of being indexed.  However, if your main site is sufficiently
interlinked, the Google spider should find them after 2-3 crawls

The following sites are a selection of those which I have found useful
whilst researching the topic of search engine optimization.

Search Engine Watch  

Webmaster World 

Search Engine World

Additionally, here is a link to a question I answered recently which
may contain further useful information with respect to PageRank.

Google Answers: Google search for a non-profit family website

I hope this answer fulfills your needs and is both interesting and
useful.  If you would like clarification of any area please do not
hesitate to ask before ranking my answer.

Kind regards,

mcfly-ga :)

**Search strategy**
search optimization OR optimisation
webmaster google 
google pagerank

Request for Answer Clarification by cypresstom-ga on 03 Jun 2003 14:11 PDT
Hello McFly,
Thank you for the detailed response!  It helps quite a bit.  I do have
a couple minor questions if you could help me from your comments.
1.  Will resubmitting the bottom tier pages guarantee they get
spidered next time, or rather increase my chances quite a bit?
2.  Could you tell me exactly what I need to put in to get the 87
backwards links from our front page?  I tried many different things
and nothing came up for any of the ones I tried.  I was trying and many others.

3.  I don't want to clutter up my home page a lot with keywords as it
won't flow as well.  Rather I want to focus on getting the PR back on
the lower tiers.  Even with a PR of 2 they were coming up VERY high on
search engines because they are so specific to that area.
Best Regards

Clarification of Answer by mcfly-ga on 03 Jun 2003 19:23 PDT
Hi again Tom,

Resubmitting will not guarantee that a specific page will be spidered
on the next index; Google have a huge list of submissions to work
through so it may take more than one crawl to obtain entry.  However,
resubmitting a site cannot hurt your chances, and although the LED
cable page for example will probably be found via the link from
index.html, adding it via URL submission may be worthwhile. 
Ultimately, if you think a page may be difficult for a search engine
spider to find, then submitting it will be likely to speed up the

Apologies for not being clear enough with regards to determining links
to  If you use Google to search for
'', you will be presented with:

    * Show Google's cache of
    * Find web pages that are similar to
    * Find web pages that link to
    * Find web pages that contain the term ""

Select the last option, and Google returns 'Results 1 - 6 of about
87', listing links to the site.  This shows the origin of the figure
87 which I quoted.

With regards to improving your PageRank on lower tier pages,
unfortunately the only way to do this is through increasing the number
of links to each individual page.  This is possible through increased
internal linking within and also by gaining
links from other sites.  Unfortunately, the reduced PR of the lower
pages is simply a feature of the Google ranking algorithm, and there
is no easy way to return to your previous PR.

Having said that, here are a few suggestions for ways to gain extra
incoming links.  As far as I can tell, you are listed by the Yahoo and
Zeal directories already.  The Open Directory Project is another
similar directory with whom I advise you pursue a listing:

Submitting a Site to The Open Directory Project

In general, the ODP will only allow one listing per site.  However, if
you feel your pages contain distinctly different information,
submitting multiple pages may be worthwhile.

Using the URL of specific pages as part of your signature when posting
in forums, or when writing to online publications is another viable
way of obtaining extra page references from high PR sites.  A strategy
as simple as emailing webmasters of related sites and asking for a
link to your pages can pay large dividends, and this is also to be

For further in-depth information about PageRank, I found the following
article particularly interesting. : PageRank Explained Correctly with Examples

Having suggested a few acceptable ways to increase PR, I should
mention some methods which are generally punished by Google by setting
PR=0 or removal from the index.  Do not use companies such as Web
Position Gold or similar, who promise #1 results positions for a fee. 
It is not within such organisations' powers to guarantee this.  Also,
the use of link exchange schemes is frowned upon; being linked to
manually from a variety of sites is much more likely to prove

Unfortunately there is no 'secret formula' to search engine success; I
would stress the importance of quality descriptive content, but
understand your desire to keep your home page aesthetically pleasing. 
As a final pointer, the following article is the closest I have found
to a 'step-by-step guide' to a high results position in Google.

Webmaster World: Successful Site in 12 Months with Google Alone

Good luck with your Googling!

mcfly :)
cypresstom-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars
Very thorough answer.  Thank you very much for your help!!!!!!

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