Someone came into our house (I live in Australia) and tried to sell us
a vacuum cleaner for over $3000.
 
I was not impressed by the salesman’s manner, or the method by which
he got into our home. He used high-pressure sales tactics, and he came
over because my partner was told that she had been selected to receive
a free clean.
 
The brand of the vacuum was Kirby, which I had never heard of before. 
 
I would like detailed answers to the following questions: 
 
What sort of sales tactics does this company use? 
 
What sort of salespeople does Kirby use? 
 
What sort of pay structure are they on? The salesman insisted that he
was not on commission, but I found that very hard to believe.
 
Was my experience, which was largely negative, typical? 
 
What do customers who have bought the vacuum think of it after the
purchase? Are they happy or do they regret it?
 
What sort of reputation does Kirby have? 
 
What stories are there in the media about Kirby? Are they mostly
positive or, as I would suspect, negative?

This question has been asked before (ID 208786).

Greetings Markabe:

Kirby Vacuum sales have been around in the U.S. for a long time and
they seem to be a well-built and versatile cleaning machine.  However,
the beginning price of the Kirby is usually never what a person has to
pay.  I had a Kirby sales pitch at my house once and the starting
price for the unit was $2,500.  Before the saleman departed, he had
reduced the asking price to $900.  I still didn't want one.

My ex mother-in-law bought a Kirby to the tune of about $1,400.  The
way I understand that it works is that the company sets the price and
then the saleman is free to negotiate as lowh as they want.  Whatever
price reduction they make eats into their comission.


You asked:

"What sort of sales tactics does this company use?"  
High pressure sales tactics.
"First of all, the Kirby might be the an excellant vacuum, however the
sales methods and finance methods are quite questionable. 
Approximately 30 minutes ago, I had a salesperson attempt to sell my
wife this product. She was impressed with the product, however, the
sales individuals in question and their phone sales tactics are quite
questionable. I suggest that all Kirby sales indivudals should have
one basic understanding -- "NO".  I had to repeat "NO" three separate
times in varying tones before this was understood."
From http://www.consumeraffairs.com/in_home/kirby_defen.html

Preying on elderly and infirm
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/in_home/kirby_elder.html

Invading Homes where child is home alone
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/in_home/kirby_minors.html

Advertising Secrets I Learned From The Kirby Vacuum Cleaner Man
http://www.marketingsurvivalkit.com/advertising-sales-strategy.htm

  
"What sort of salespeople does Kirby use?"  
In my experience, anyone who signs up.  About ten years ago, I
answered an ad in the paper for a job for salespeople thinking it was
for a retail store.  I was sent to an office address at a specific
time where I discovered about 20 other people sitting in a large room.
 When the host began the sales pitch and arrived at the product name,
Kirby Vacuums, I continued to listen but I knew I wouldn't sell them. 
I sat there a bit irritated that I hadn't been told what the job
entailed until the meeting but I decided to learn about the sales
tactics so that I could better defend myself from pushy salespeople. 
lol  I sat and listened and learned.  During the meeting, it was
stated that the elderly were the best sales candidates.

The "supervisor" of the meeting offered to train everyone there to
make them "successful Kirby salespeople" by allowing each of us to
follow him around and learn from his sales tactics - at the time, it
was stated that the commission scale is based on a percentage for
salesperson and supervisors.  Usually the salesperson at the house
calls the supervisor about all negotiations.  The surpervisor is the
actual orderer of the vacuums from the factory.  Then he gets
salespeople to work for him and makes money on each of their sales.

See "Secrets of the hard sell" on Kirby from ABC news at
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/DailyNews/primetime_kirby_020404.html
where the article reads in part, "Charles Robinson, for example, says
that when he was an independent distributor and salesman for Kirby
carpet-cleaning vacuums, he sold units to people who didn't have
carpet — and even to one customer who didn't have electricity.  An
estimated $1 billion worth of Kirbys are sold every year. They are
sold exclusively through independent distributors who buy vacuums from
the company and then sell them to the public in their homes. Across
the nation, Primetime uncovered more than 1,000 consumer complaints
about Kirby vacuum cleaner salespeople. ABCNEWS' Chris Wallace
conducted a hidden-camera investigation to find out how far some
salespeople will go to convince homeowners to purchase a vacuum and
its accessories — which can cost upwards of $2,000."


"What sort of pay structure are they on? The salesman insisted that he
was not on commission, but I found that very hard to believe." 
I don't know about commission in Australia but in the states, the
Kirby salesperson can sell the vacuum for just about anything they
want when the customer pays cash instead of signing the loan
agreement.  They don't just sell the vacuums, they sell the loan, too
- that interest makes for a nice little extra sum.  The $900 price I
was finally quoted (above) was a "cash only" price.

"I nearly gagged! 1500 is a lot of money for a vacuum cleaner, I could
pay someone to be a maid for a while for that much mint, but I thought
of bargaining. How about 800, a lower interest rate and I will pay
half now. They didn't budge at first, and said "I can give my
commission and drop it down to 1100" and I didn't budge. The famous
call to the manager then ensued and 15 minutes later I was the proud
owner of a Kirby Ultra G for 800 bucks."
From http://www.epinions.com/content_73254014596

  
"Was my experience, which was largely negative, typical?"
From what I have heard from other people, yes.  
See "Free Home Demonstration" at
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/in_home/kirby_demo.html

  
"What do customers who have bought the vacuum think of it after the 
purchase? Are they happy or do they regret it?"
My mother-in-law was thrilled.  She was a clean freak and she believed
that the vacumm was a wonder tool.  I vacuumed once with it and it
seemed to do the same job vacuuming as my $100 WalMart vacuum.  I saw
no difference.
See "But do they work" at
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/in_home/kirby_works.html

Also, "two days later, i discovered the first disadvantage. merely
trying to carry the machine upstairs is a nightmare. the sheer weight
is extraordinary...as time passed warp threads were appearing in
doorways where carpets were joined and at the edges by the skirting
boards. It took some to realise that the Kirby was responsible..."
From http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/electronics/vacuum_cleaners/kirby_gsix_vacuum/_review/365297/

I had heard the latter before from a few consumers, that the power was
too great for an inexpensive carpet and it would slowly tear the
threads from the carpet and damage it.

"i used to be one of these salesmen, but left the job as i am too soft
to pressurise people into parting with their money for such an
overpriced item. the reason it costs so much money is the way it is
marketed (demonstrations are expensive to set up and time consuming)
and also the salesman gets around £300 commission.  the cleaner itself
is a good vacuum, but only worth around £300 or so. it is very robust
and has plenty of power, but it is no more efficient that most other
cleaners out there."
From http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/electronics/vacuum_cleaners/kirby_gsix_vacuum/_review/51178/


"What sort of reputation does Kirby have?"
I'll leave that to your judgment as most of the links I've provided
have addressed reputation as well.  The reputations of the salespeople
and the reputation of the vacuum as a cleaning machine are two
different things.

Here are a few comments from a public message group at
http://tom.pohl-family.net/archives/000024.html:

"...What truly sold me was the fact that I used to own a Kirby and I
still vividly remember that demonstration. And what the TriStar
salesman was eluding to was absolutely correct. When the Kirby guy
demoed his machine he didn't do it with the bag in the unit but with
something they called their "Collector" they did not demo it with
their own bag in it, and emptied it frequently. And then after the
sale the guy puts on the bag and then zips it up. I later learned that
they do this because there is a disclaimer on the bag that says it
will clog if you put dust in it!"

"I was a Kirby Distributor for over 10 years. The product is great!
The price gauging is horrible. You can actually purchase a new Kirby
for about $600 if you know how to wheel and deal. If you don't, your
likely to pay $2000.00. I do believe, however, that $1200.00 is a fair
price to pay for the product. The sales tactics that are taught by the
company are horrible. If they would just sell their product the right
way, at a reasonable price, they would be a great company to be
associated with. Posted by: Withheld on March 29, 2003 05:29 PM"

"Well my brother worked for Kirby for a week and they never paid him
for his hard work. He was told he had to see 15 houses and do a demo
of the machine. He would be paid the 400 dollars "starting pay". That
never happend. On his last day of the week they told him they didn't
have any appointments for him. So when he went to receive his pay they
explained to him that the total 15 houses werent seen . So you would
think he would get some kind of pay right.WRONG. They gave him
nothing...Posted by: Patrick on April 29, 2003 05:41 AM "

"... its a numbers game. many "distributors" who are nothing more than
ascended "dealers" make in excess of $100,000 a year. its straight on
sales, there is no investment in a retail store, advertising etc.
rather a massive number of hardworking individuals doing unpaid labor
with a few lucky breaks. i was conned by a deceptive classified
employment ad into the business..."GREAT opportunities, guarantees,
etc" supposedly, but they dont hold water in real practice unless
youre a snake. its all about getting the sale, the high pressure
tactics are real. as long as you word it right supposedly its not
lying. Posted by: guy who works for kirby on June 9, 2003 02:42 AM "

  
"What stories are there in the media about Kirby? Are they mostly 
positive or, as I would suspect, negative?"
I've cited a few sources (and I found more negative than positive)
regarding this already and here are a few more:

Tips on Senior Scams
"April 15, 2002
We’ve gotten lots of calls on the show about those annoying Kirby
vacuum salespeople who never seem to go away. Kirby sells about $1
billion worth of vacuums every year and they’re very expensive –
usually about $2,700 a customer. Clark has always said don’t buy these
models when you can buy one that works just fine for $150. Now, ABC
has released a story detailing how the Kirby representatives wear
people down and use deceptive sales tehcniques to get people to buy.
The TV program aired tapes of salespeople intentionally tricking
elderly consumers and talking about how they duped their customers
into spending thousands. It may seem like the results are amazing when
these people demonstrate the product in your home. But ABC proved that
a $149 vacuum will give you the same effect."
http://clarkhoward.com/library/tips/senior_scams.html

There are many other consumer reviews of the product at
http://www.epinions.com/hmgd-Large_Appliances-All-Kirby_Gsix/display_~reviews/pp_~5
 
You may also view the official Kirby site
The Kirby Story
http://www.kirby.com/story01.shtml
The "story of Kirby" begins on this page and runs for 15 pages.  See
the page numbers at bottom.

Also see "Solutions at work" at
http://www.pfonline.com/articles/010304.html about Kirby
manufacturing.

**************

I didn't see your previous question on this topic or I would have
answered it sooner.  Should you require clarification of any of the
links or information I have provided, please request it and I will be
happy to respond.


SEARCH STRATEGY:

Kirby vacuum cleaner sales
Kirby vacuum cleaner reputation
Kirby vacuum reputation
Kirby carpet wear
Kirby vacuum commission
Kirby vacuum sales
Kirby vacuum sales force
Kirby vacuum salespeople

---

Clarification of Answer by journalist-ga on 25 Jun 2003 07:31 PDT

I'd like to add that I have also heard of "buying clubs" that will
purchase Kirby cleaning systems.  It works somewhat like this:

10 people/families decide they want a Kirby system and they approach a
Kirby dealer (the higher up supervisor) with "We want 10 units and we
will pay $600 per unit.  That's our highest offer.  Period."

This may work well for you if you do want one of the cleaners.  Just
approach your friends with this idea and see what happens.

I also found this at
http://www.state.wv.us/wvag/annualreports/2001/an01_assurances.htm

"IN THE MATTER OF THE INVESTIGATION OF SALE AND FINANCING
    OF KIRBY PRODUCTS IN WEST VIRGINIA
 
    On October 4, 2001, the Division secured an Agreement to enter
into an Assurance with all six companies who presently engage in the
home solicitation sale and financing of Kirby vacuum cleaners (Kirby)
in West Virginia. The Assurance will require all Kirby distributors to
refrain from engaging in a wide range of unlawful practices,
including: failing to furnish consumers with proper notice of their
three-day right to cancel; misrepresenting the terms and conditions of
financing; financing sales of Kirbys on "open-end" credit accounts;
selling used, rebuilt or demonstrator Kirbys as "new;" failing to
return down payments or trade-ins to consumers who cancel sales;
inducing consumers to allow in-home sales presentations by promising
to "shampoo their carpets," stating they have "won" a contest or
prize, stating that they were "specially selected" or making any other
false or misleading representations; and extending credit to consumers
known to be non-creditworthy or otherwise exploiting consumers unable
to protect themselves by reason of physical or mental infirmities,
ignorance, illiteracy, or inability to understand the transaction. As
of this date, the Attorney General has obtained a total value of
$26,176.12 in cash refunds, canceled debt, and product for 18 West
Virginia consumers."

and

"IN THE MATTER OF CREDIT INVESTMENTS, INC.
   
    In November of 2001, the Division entered into an Assurance with
Credit Investments, Inc. of Wheat Ridge, Colorado. The company engages
in the purchase of credit agreements arising from the home
solicitation sale of Kirby vacuum cleaners (Kirbys) to consumers in
West Virginia. The Division opened an investigation of Credit
Investments after a consumer complained that the company failed to
take responsibility as an assignee lender for her claims against the
seller, including her claim that her vacuum was defective when it was
sold to her.

    In the Assurance, Credit Investments agreed to refrain from
several unlawful practices, including: misleading consumers about
their three-day right to cancel; advising consumers that payments must
be made on their account regardless of any claims they may have
against the seller; accelerating balances and filing suits to collect
allegedly delinquent accounts without first furnishing consumers
proper notice of their right to cure default; collecting fees in
excess of $15.00 for bad checks; and representing that debt collection
and attorney's fees may be added to delinquent accounts when such fees
are prohibited by West Virginia law. The Assurance also required the
company to dismiss with prejudice the collection suit it filed against
the consumer complainant and cancel the alleged debt of $1,525.40; pay
$1,000.00 as additional consumer restitution; and resolve all future
complaints to the reasonable satisfaction of the Attorney General."

---

Request for Answer Clarification by markabe-ga on 02 Jul 2003 03:08 PDT

neoluxau,

Thank you for your insight into how Kirby recruits and trains its
sales force. With all the protests and union strikes that we get in
Australia about how workers are unfairly treated, I find it amazing
that Kirby is able to get away with this sort of exploitation and
deception of its own workers.

---

Request for Answer Clarification by markabe-ga on 02 Jul 2003 03:12 PDT

journalist,

Firstly, this is a great answer you've provided, and I've asked a few
questions on this site.

I'd like to get more examples of the sales tactics Kirby salespeople
use. This would be useful to others that have yet to encounter a
door-to-door salesperson, and I'd be interested in knowing the ethics,
not to mention the legality, of the tactics used.

---

Clarification of Answer by journalist-ga on 02 Jul 2003 12:56 PDT

As you requested, here are additional links about Kirby sales tactics:

Gobsmacked in the U.K. 
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/in_home/kirby_uk.html

Kirby Vacuum Sales Questioned
http://www.beloitdailynews.com/500/5wis10.htm

Don't let this company in your door!
http://www.consumer.org.nz/topic.asp?category=Appliances&subcategory=Laundry%20%26%20cleaning&docid=217&topic=Vacuum%20cleaners,%20Kirby&title=Introduction&contenttype=summary

Bronson Obtains $13,000 in Refunds For Senior Citizens 
http://www.doacs.state.fl.us/press/2002/10312002.html

More Examples of Marketing and Persuasion
http://www.truthpizza.org/authorit/market2.htm
See "A high pressure sales routine" about midway down the page
From there:
"Sometime in about 1975 we received a visit from a Kirby vacuum
cleaner salesman who said he would shampoo our carpet free. It turned
into a long, rather unpleasant, but educational, evening. This
particular salesman was apparently new at the job and not very
convincing, but he did employ an interesting repertoire of sales
tactics. I recall him telling us that the engine pumped (something
like) one hundred twenty-eight POINT TWO "cubic square feet" of air
per second. Clearly he meant cubic feet. To an engineer like myself 
"cubic square feet" is a truly bizarre concept. It is also strange
that he emphasized the "point two", the least important part of the
number. Later he was telling us we could use the Kirby to get microbes
out of our mattress. He told us that even waterproof rubber sheets
couldn't keep microbes out since microbes were "much smaller than
water molecules." That would come as a shock to biologists."

The entire piece is *very* entertaining and educational.


SEARCH STRATEGY:

Kirby "sales tactics"

A fantastic answer, with clarifications to match. The comments were
also most helpful - many thanks to neoluxau. I may ask a similar
question in the future to find out more, but for now this is a most
comprehensive response.

I worked as a Kirby Salesman for about two weeks in Melbourne,
Australia.

At commencement we were given the option to either go on the "Demo"
program or on full commission.  The Demo program was where we got
$AUD20 (all prices in AUD from here on in) for every demonstration,
plus a further $100 if the customer made the purchase.  Full
commission was about $400 if purchase was made, but nothing for the
demo.

The tactics used to get in the persons home were as follows:

In the morning, we would all go around a certain area and doorknock
with raffle tickets.  "Here's a free raffle ticket to go in the draw
to win $1000 off your rent or mortgage, and 1 in 5 people will receive
a free carpet, upholstery or mattress clean, would you like a free
ticket?"

Most people said yes.  After all, it's free and you can get something
back.  When we had their details, they would be passed onto
telemarketers who would then call 1 in 1 people to congratulate them
on winning a free clean and to arrange an appointment time, usually in
the afternoon.

In the afternoon, we would go to the appointment, and as a beginner, I
would accompany a "van manager" to the person's home to learn how to
sell.  There was no payment for this.  The sell would then proceed
with a demonstration of the "kirby cleaning system" (it's not just a
vacuum cleaner, it's an entire system).  The free clean was using the
Kirby on whatever the customer had chosen.  1 room/mattress/chair
only.  In all the demonstration lasted about 1 to 2 hours.

The system *is* great, and the customers were obviously impressed by
it.  Then came the price.  I think at that time the RRP was $3200.  We
could negotiate down to about $1800 to make the sale (with approval
from the van manager).  If the customer could not afford it outright,
finance was offered (at about 30%). We would also trade in their old
vacuum cleaner for a reduction of the price.

Out of the sale price, the demonstrator would get commission, the van
manager would get commission, the manager of the van manager would get
commission, the area manager would get commission, and so on all the
way up the line.  Other incentives were also offered for high numbers
of sales in a month, for example.

I am not one for the hard sell, and everything came to a head when in
the second week, as we were hawking around a country town, I asked my
van manager a question about the tactics used.  He responded with "The
less you tell people the better." At that time I had enough, told the
guy that I was not happy with the whole situation, and I drove home
never to return.  I earned about $80 for two weeks of work, including
travelling more than 80kms in my own car.

I think the Kirbys are a great machine, but I HATE the way they are
sold.  I could never get one, because the amount of money just in
commission is exhorbitant and unjustified.  From what I could see the
actual cost of the unit is about $400-500.  The worth of the unit, in
my opinion, is probably about $600-700, and if sold through normal
sales channels, would still be competitive.

The areas we targeted were low to middle income areas, as residents
there were more likely to have a higher disposable income.  Builders,
Plumbers etc, that earn good money, but don't send their kids to
private school, own two Mercs, and a house over $500,000.

The only anecdotal evidence from users of the system has been that
they are happy with the unit itself, but regret paying the amount they
did.  Some people have even upgraded their units to later models,
although whether there is a special price for this I don't know.

For the record, I was out of work, and responded to an Ad in the local
paper claiming "no experience necessary, all training given, earn high
amounts of money, international company", so basically all the
trademarks of a hard sell position, although I didn't realise it at
the time.  The interview was in a group setting, and only after we had
"passed" (which was usually 97% of people) were we told the actual
nature of the job.  As I was in desperate times, I decided to give it
a go.  And as I stated above, this lasted for less than 2 weeks.

I hope this helps to get an Australian perspective from someone with
actual experience from the other side.

Let me know if you need any more information or clarification.

Even though, I'm not a paid researcher, I wanted to tell my story to
try and assist others who are considering Kirby as a job, and at least
give some background into the product for the benefit of potential
buyers.  I apologise for the lack of structure in this comment, but I
wrote it as I remembered it.

Cheers!

Thank you, Neoluxau!  Although you are not a Researcher, you certainly
gave an excellent first person answer from your experience and I'm
certain Markabe appreciates it.  Your comment "The only anecdotal
evidence from users of the system has been that they are happy with
the unit itself, but regret paying the amount they did" seems to be
the norm in the information I located.

It's unfortunate that a good product is many times sold by
unscrupulous persons but it seems to be the major complaint about the
Kirby sales force.  They could probably make a very decent income
selling the units for a fair price instead of utilizing the
"pyramid-type" of commission program that they currently follow that
seems to seriously inflate the price.

Again, thanks *very much* for your comment.

Best regards,
journalist-ga

I would just like to add that I have been a proud owner of a Kirby
vacuum for several years now. That thing sucks up cat hair like
nothing else I have ever seen. The attachments are interesting, but in
the end, too much effort to be useful. Also, I was able to avoid high
pressure sales people by purchasing my Kirby for $20 at a garage sale.
Highly recommended.

I have read all the negative comments re Kirby and thought that my own
memories might interest people. Back in the late 1970's, I worked for
Kirby in England. The complete unit then sold for around 300 UK pounds
and included a tool system and a carpet cleaning system. The unit was
then known as the Kirby Classic. It was magic. My step-mother bought
one for cleaning the pub that we then owned and my father bought one
for his house. We did have incentive bonuses, but we were told by our
distributer at the time that we were never to lie about the system. If
we did, we were out. There was never any need to hard-sell this
equipment, it sold itself and I never tired of doing the demos that we
did for everyone. Our promise was to leave the house after 10 minutes
if the prospective customer was not interested. I only left twice, and
later one of the people actually called me at my office and requested
a new demo. He subsequently bought the system. It was always available
on very easy terms, and because of it's reputation for being
long-lasting, many people bought it on hire purchase.  It sold well.
My parents Kirby's lasted over 25 years and were still working when
they passed away recently. The only things that occasionally needed
replacing by the local agent were belts. Their cleaning power was
unsurpassed at the time, they were solidly built and amazingly
versatile. I only left the company when I left the UK to live and work
in a place where there was no Kirby distributer. Obviously things vary
from country to country and from distributer to distributer and I have
to admit that I haven't kept up to date with the later models. It's a
shame that a company with such a great product should have it's name
dragged through the dirt because of unscrupulous sales methods. I have
only the fondest memories of Kirby.