Google Answers Logo
View Question
 
Q: Google ranking ( Answered,   0 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Google ranking
Category: Miscellaneous
Asked by: impreza-ga
List Price: $200.00
Posted: 04 Jul 2003 04:44 PDT
Expires: 03 Aug 2003 04:44 PDT
Question ID: 225078
Hello, Ref: www.contactmusic.com  We have employed "specilists" in
increasing search engine ranking at great expence, without result and
in some cases, with reverse results. Would you be kind enough to help
us by way of advise in order for us to enjoy more Google user
visitors? Of course, we are quite willing to pay for this information.
Looking forward to hearing.

Sincerely,
Geoff Harrison.
Investor.

Request for Question Clarification by larre-ga on 04 Jul 2003 16:13 PDT
Hello, Geoff 

Which search engine optimization strategies have been tried?

For how long?

How did each affect your ranking?

A little history of your past experience will allow us to better
pinpoint what might be changed to help your particular site, rather
than just offering generic advice.

Your chosen keywords are very popular -- with millions of sites vying
for the same exposure -- plus, the site has already achieved a middle
position in PageRank. The higher the ranking, the tougher the climb to
even higher numbers.

Thanks,
larre-ga

Clarification of Question by impreza-ga on 10 Jul 2003 08:41 PDT
Hi Larre,

In response to your quiery.

I should start by mentioning of site is based on a Lotus Notes system
(not sure if this has any bearing).

We have in the past used 2 independant companies whose efforts didn't
work and have been submitting pages using Submit Wolf and previously
have used Web position Gold.

We are currently renaming all of the pages on the site so that the
title matches the content, as we have been told that this is
important.

Do we need to use keywords or will google spider the content of the
page? Which of these methods would you recommend?

Are we falling foul of any meta tag rules that may result in Google
down grading our results?

Could you suggest any improvements to our meta tags or general
strategy?

When we do a link popularity test for the site we notice that there
are only 33 pages linking into www.contactmusic.com, if we input
www.contactmusic.com/film it shows 0 links in yet if we use the other
url for that page http://mail.contactmusic.com/new/home.nsf/webpages/films
it shows that there are over 400 links in. Is this how the system is
supposed to work? We see over 2000 links on other SE's when using
www.contactmusic.com?

We also have many affiliate sites and use commission junction to
control these, even though we have 7,000 affiliates with links on
their sites these don't show up on google as links in. Please comment.

Thank you for your time,

Geoff Harrison
Investor
Answer  
Subject: Re: Google ranking
Answered By: larre-ga on 11 Jul 2003 02:32 PDT
 
Thanks very much for your response. I'll address each of the points
you've raised, then add the information I've gathered for and about
your site, and my recommendations for raising its position in the
search engine results.

As our standard disclaimer, we must tell you that as independent
contractors, Google Answers Researchers do not speak officially for
Google itself, however, we can provide insight into webmaster use of
the search engine and PageRank system, based upon our own experiences,
observation and study.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
I should start by mentioning of site is based on a Lotus Notes system
(not sure if this has any bearing).


Thanks for mentioning this. I will be making some recommendations
regarding content/keyword density. Knowing that you're using a content
management system is useful.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
We have in the past used 2 independant companies whose efforts didn't
work and have been submitting pages using Submit Wolf and previously
have used Web position Gold.


Again, very good to know. I'm afraid that in the majority of cases,
the benefits claimed by the programs/services are outweighed by the
disadvantages in relation to Google specific search results.

Webmasters and traffic analysts of many highly ranked, Google-friendly
websites say that Google accounts for 90-95% of their traffic,
whatever their total traffic level might be. And Google specifically
discourages use of the main features of Web Position Gold.

"Google does not encourage the use of doorway pages. We want to point
users to content pages, not to doorways or splash screens."

Google Webmaster Guidelines
://www.google.com/webmasters/2.html#B3

"Don't use unauthorized computer programs to submit pages, check
rankings, etc. Such programs consume computing resources and violate
our terms of service. Google does not recommend the use of products
such as WebPosition Gold™ that send automatic or programmatic queries
to Google."

Google Webmaster Guidelines
://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html

I doubt that SubmitWolf is on Google's list of unauthorized programs.
However, automatic site submission is not necessarily the most
productive way to achieve listings that help your Google PageRank.
Automatic submission programs may submit your site to multiple
directories, but unless these directories are examined individually,
you can't know if you've chosen the best category for -that-
particular directory. Human oversight is much better, even if a bit
slower. By manually submitting your site, you have a chance to examine
the directory structure, choose which page your link appears, and
optimize your keywords and description for that particular directory
and its users. Choosing a subcategory with fewer outbound links, or a
related category that is highly popular with the directory's users can
not only increase traffic from that source, but can also contribute to
the amount of page rank 'given' by the linking site. The extra care
can make a significant difference in PageRank accumulation across 400
sites.

Secondly, most submission services and software submit to myriad FFA
(Free For All) pages. These submission -might- bring a small amount of
traffic, but they are generally not very valuable for search engine
placement. By the time such pages are re-spidered by the search
engines your links are simply one among 100,000's of thousands on
pages with little or no PageRank available to "vote" for your site.
Save energy and server resources for strategies that are more likely
to bring targeted visitors. The two or three weeks required in order
to hand-submit customized entries 500-1,000 directories may well prove
to be one of your most valuable investments.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
We are currently renaming all of the pages on the site so that the
Title matches the content, as we have been told that this is
important.

Yes, this is important. It's also important to include page keywords
in each title.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do we need to use keywords or will google spider the content of the
page? Which of these methods would you recommend?


Use, both, actually. Though Google doesn't use the META keywords to
determine ranking, other search engines and directories do take them
into account. It's still worthwhile to include them. You should tailor
the keywords to match the content of each individual page.

Google performs its own analysis of page content. I'll cover that in
greater detail under keyword density, below.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Are we falling foul of any meta tag rules that may result in Google
down grading our results?

Could you suggest any improvements to our meta tags or general
strategy?

I don't seen any violations of Google Guidelines in your META tag
usage. Despite the emphasis on META tags by many SEO's, they have less
impact on ranking than on display. You can better invest your initial
efforts in more productive changes.

Google's Guidelines list practices that should be avoided:

-- Avoid hidden text or hidden links. 
-- Don't employ cloaking or sneaky redirects. 
-- Don't send automated queries to Google. 
-- Don't load pages with irrelevant words. 
-- Don't create multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with 
   substantially duplicate content. 
-- Avoid "doorway" pages created just for search engines, or other
   "cookie cutter" approaches such as affiliate programs with little
   or no original content. 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
When we do a link popularity test for the site we notice that there
are only 33 pages linking into www.contactmusic.com, if we input   
www.contactmusic.com/film it shows 0 links in yet if we use the other
url for that page http://mail.contactmusic.com/new/home.nsf/webpages/films
it shows that there are over 400 links in. Is this how the system is
supposed to work? We see over 2000 links on other SE's when using
www.contactmusic.com?


Additionally, I've located approximately 1,700 inbound links with
Google's link utility. The trick is to insert a space between the
"link:" and the beginning of the sitename, as shown in the following
results:

://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=link%3A+contactmusic.com&btnG=Google+Search

://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=links%3A+contactmusic.com&btnG=Google+Search

By observation, we see that Google only shows inbound links from pages
with PageRank of 3 or greater, so there may be more linked pages in
the Google index, but they won't be shown or counted in this
particular search usage. I'll cover this ranking in more detail in my
explanation of PageRank and how it relates to your site.

The resources I've listed for Google PageRank outline the actual value
and importance of standardizing your inbound links with a single site
reference URL. The site's .htaccess file might be utilized to
accomplish this task retroactively. The mail subdomain -ideally-
should only be used for e-mail, not for http page display.

You may view your DNS Report (repeatedly, if desired) at:
http://www.dnsreport.com/tools/dnsreport.ch?domain=contactmusic.com 
  
You may wish to verify that your DNS records are properly configured.
Step by step instructions are offered at:
  
DNS Oversimplified 
http://www.rscott.org/dns/ 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
We also have many affiliate sites and use commission junction to
control these, even though we have 7,000 affiliates with links on
their sites these don't show up on google as links in. Please comment.


The links on your affiliate's sites link to Commission Junction and
Commission Junction redirects that traffic to you. CJ's redirects are
not indexed in any way. The inbound links, if indexed, would be
credited to Commission Junction, rather than to your own site.

"...if you use an affiliate service, such as Commission Junction, the
links point to the affiliate service and get redirected to your site.
If you host your own affiliate program, all those affiliate links
point directly to you."

Link Popularity Article
http://www.digital-page-author-software.com/link_popularity_article.htm

The excerpt above, from the authors of 131 (Legitimate) Link Building
Strategies (Robin Nobles, Eric Ward, and John Alexander) both defines
the difficulty and offers one possible solution -- switching to
administration and hosting of your own affiliate program, rather than
using a third party. By doing so, all of the affiliate links will
point directly to your own site.

Affiliate Program Software:

CGI Resource
http://cgi.resourceindex.com/Programs_and_Scripts/Perl/Website_Promotion/Affiliate_Programs/

Google Directory
http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Internet/Web_Design_and_Development/Promotion/Pay-Per-Click_Advertising/Software_and_Tools/?il=1

http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Internet/Web_Design_and_Development/Authoring/Webmaster_Resources/Affiliate_Programs/Resources/Software/?il=1
----------------------------------------------------------------------


KEYWORDS AND KEYWORD DENSITY
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I've examined ContactMusic.com's Google search results. It's true that
the site doesn't rank highly (in the top 1,000 of over six million
results) for most of the keywords that are listed in the site homepage
META keywords tag.

As I mentioned, Google doesn't use that META tag to determine
keywords. Google analyses the text (content) of your pages, and
determines on its own what the page is really about.

Let's take a look at your homepage using Search Engine World's Keyword
Density Analyzer.

Search Engine World - Keyword Density Analyzer
http://www.searchengineworld.com/cgi-bin/kwda.cgi

Enter your URL: http://www.contactmusic.com
Uncheck the checkbox next to "Include META tag Keywords"
Uncheck the checkbox next to "Include META tag Description"
Leave defaults for other options
Press the Analyze It button.

Most of the keywords in your META tag are two and three word phrases,
however, none of those keyword phrases are represented in the lists
generated by the Keyword Density Analyzer.

Let's take a look at two of the higher density phrases, and do a
corresponding Google Search on each phrase.

latest music - 14.66% - Google Ranking: #16
://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=latest+music

latest music reviews - 18.88% - Google Ranking #6
://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=latest+music+reviews

Most of the other frequently used phrases contain the name
"ContactMusic.com", and sure enough, in a search for ContractMusic,
the site is shown as the first result. Unless searchers are already
looking specifically for ContactMusic, it's unlikely they'll search
very frequently on the name of the site. The site visitor logs
probably reflect a similar pattern of keyword findability.

The single most effective change that can be made to ContactMusic.com
is to write both homepage and inside page content to reflect a higher
density of the keyword phrases you wish to be located by. If you
include a higher percentage of keyword phrases in your text, you'll
have a much better chance of being found under those keywords.

There's an art and science to this content/keyword strategy. I
recommend the RankWrite Rountable, and its successor newsletter, High
Rankings Advisor as excellent learning resources.

RankWrite Roundtable
Search Engine Optimization Information and Advice
http://www.rankwrite.com/

High Ranking Advisor
http://www.highrankings.com/advisor.htm


GOOGLE PageRank
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Your link popularity is actually quite high. Increasing it will come
in smaller increments than in the first couple of years of the site's
growth. Understanding a bit about the workings of the PageRank system
will help you understand which small changes can keep your PageRank
trending upward.

In its simplest form, the major part of the Google PageRank
calculation is merely a tabulated vote for the popularity of your
website by all the voters (other websites) in the Web. Websites "vote"
by linking to other websites.

A few definitions:


Actual PageRank (PR)
--------------------
The real, actual PageRank for each page, as calculated by Google. The
range is thought to be 0.15 to billions.


Toolbar PageRank (tPR)
----------------------
The PageRank displayed in the Google browser toolbar. Range is 1 to
10, and is believed to represent a logarithmic scale. The most
familiar logarithmic scale is the Richter Scale, which measures
seismic events. In a similar manner, each number of the Toolbar
PageRank represents a range of values, each successive range many
times greater than the previous one. Example:

     Toolbar PageRank        Real Page Rank
   (with a log base 10)

             0                    0 - 10
             1                  100 - 1,000
             2                1,000 - 10,000
             3               10,000 - 100,000
             4                 and so on...


Inbound and Outbound Links
--------------------------
These are links leading to your website (Inbound links) or from your
website (Outbound links). Inbound links enhance PR, Outbound links
drain it.


Each Inbound link to your website counts as a "vote" of how important
that page is. No link, no vote, however the absence of a link only
counts as an abstention, rather than a vote against. Only positive
votes are used in calculating PageRank.

ContactMusic has many inbound links. The most valuable links are those
from pages with a toolbar PageRank of 4 or higher. Despite the number
of links already achieved, additional links from sites which have
substantial PageRank of their own should be sought on a continuing
basis.

Dixon Jones, of Receptional recommends "...do not employ (as a general
rule) a linking strategy designed for search engines, rather for REAL
traffic. The SE bonus is great, but it’s better to think of the
quality of the link as a vehicle to get a human to your site, not a
spider. The search engines will then find your links stronger than
your competitors', because they are!" You'll find this, along with
many more linking strategies outlined in:

131 (Legitimate) Link Building Strategies 
by Robin Nobles, Eric Ward, and John Alexander
http://www.digital-page-author-software.com/link_popularity_article.htm



ContactMusic's internal linking structure could also be optimized to
concentrate PageRank in selected pages. Both of the following
resources explain and illustrate internal linking strategies that may
be chosen to enhance homepage PageRank, as determined optimal by your
marketing plan. I recommend these explanations highly. PageRank is not
nearly so intimidating if studied in conjunction with the examples
provided in these PageRank analyses.

IPR Computing - Ian Rogers
Page Rank Explained
The Google Pagerank Algorithm and How It Works
http://www.iprcom.com/papers/pagerank/

Web Workshop  -- Phil Craven
Google's PageRank Explained and how to make the most of it 
http://www.webworkshop.net/pagerank.html

Phil Craven’s PageRank Calculator
http://webworkshop.net/pagerank_calculator.html

WebWorkshop.net sometimes loads slowly, or requires several tries
before full display. It's worth the effort.


DYNAMIC PAGES
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I notice that many product pages in the online store are not being
indexed by Google. Since they are third and fourth level in the site
hierarchy, Google spiders may not get to them any time soon. You could
assist the search engine spiders by manually indexing (listing) these
dynamic links in a store directory or table of contents. If this is
impractical, you might consider software such as XQASP or LinkDriver
to convert product dynamic links to those that are search engine
friendlier.


FROOGLE
----------------------------------------------------------------------

A few of your affiliates use Froogle to advertise their wares. Though
Froogle currently accepts only U.S. sites for inclusion, perhaps you
could consider offering a complimentary datafeed (and enhanced
commissions) to U.S. affiliates who wish to list on Froogle.

Froogle Merchant Information
http://froogle.google.com/froogle/merchants.html#feed


DMOZ OPEN DIRECTORY
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I found only one ContactMusic.com link in the Open Directory, a
Contactmusic interview with Jake Black (Rev. D. Wayne Love), under the
category: Arts: Music: Bands and Artists: A: Alabama 3: Articles and
Interviews. I note that there are many more reviews that would be
logical inclusions in DMOZ. DMOZ does allow a certain amount deep
linking of multiple pages relevant to their categories. Do not submit
batch or bulk pages to DMOZ, but look for relevant categories, and
submit pages one at a time. Wait until each is accepted before
submitting another to another relevant category. DMOZ links are
considered by many to be the Rolls Royce of PageRank voting.


ABOVE ALL: PATIENCE
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Site promotion is an ongoing task. There aren't any instant solutions
that'll insure both quick and forever site popularity. Site promotion
tasks should be included in the business plan. Search engine
guidelines also change, and ranking systems evolve over time. It's not
enough to achieve short term rankings -- business success depends upon
continued rankings. Prudent sites keep up with the latest in search
engine guidelines and trends, their sites grow and diversify according
to plan, rather than chance. Successful sites often link growth to
certain traffic and search result benchmarks, working at enhancing
position before extending into diversified areas. Become the best,
first, then experiment with expansion into new areas. The most
successful sites appear to expand niche by niche.

Patience is vitally important. New search engine strategies are best
implemented sequentially, and their effects measured. It often takes
three or four spider cycles for changes to have an effect on rankings
or PageRank.


RESOURCES
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The listed forums provide a wealth of information in archived
discussion threads, as well as the opportunity to participate or
follow current discussions of search engine trends and issues.

Webmaster World 
http://www.webmasterworld.com

Search Engine World
http://www.searchengineworld.com

Search Engine Forums at JimWorld
http://searchengineforums.com/bin/Ultimate.cgi 


Search Engine Basics
--------------------

Search Engine Placement Tips 
http://www.searchenginewatch.com/webmasters/tips.html 

How To Use HTML Meta Tags 
http://searchenginewatch.com/webmasters/meta.html 
   
Search Engine Watch Webmaster Info 
http://searchenginewatch.com/webmasters/index.html  
   
Danny Sullivan's Search Engine Watch is highly reputable and
recommended as a prime source of up-to-date search engine news and
information.
   

Tips from Google on developing a Google-friendly site: 

Webmasters Help Directory 
://www.google.com/webmasters

Available information includes: 
   
  Guidelines: ://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html 
  Facts/Fiction: ://www.google.com/webmasters/facts.html  
  SE Optimization: ://www.google.com/webmasters/seo.html 
  FAQ: ://www.google.com/webmasters/faq.html   
   
You'll also find Google wisdom and advice at: 
   
User Support Discussion Forum
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=google.public.support.general


Search Engine Site Analysis Tools

-- WebPage Size Checker 
-- Sim Spider 
-- HTML Validator 
-- robots.txt Validator 
-- Browser Header Checker 
-- Server Header Checker 
-- Da Scrambler 
-- Keyword Density Analyzer 

Webmaster's Tool Chest
http://www.searchengineworld.com/misc/tools.htm


ANSWER STRATEGY
----------------------------------------------------------------------

My answer was compiled from site research of ContactMusic.com, as
shown by Google and other search engines, from my own bookmarks, and
from knowledge of search engine optimization, earned as webmaster and
web developer, working in tandem with SEO specialists on website
development.

If anything I've said is unclear or if you (egads!) discover a broken
link, please let me know. I'll be happy to make it right.

--- larre
Comments  
There are no comments at this time.

Important Disclaimer: Answers and comments provided on Google Answers are general information, and are not intended to substitute for informed professional medical, psychiatric, psychological, tax, legal, investment, accounting, or other professional advice. Google does not endorse, and expressly disclaims liability for any product, manufacturer, distributor, service or service provider mentioned or any opinion expressed in answers or comments. Please read carefully the Google Answers Terms of Service.

If you feel that you have found inappropriate content, please let us know by emailing us at answers-support@google.com with the question ID listed above. Thank you.
Search Google Answers for
Google Answers  


Google Home - Answers FAQ - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy