For KRISWRITE: American Revolution.

Kriswrite,
I wonder would it be possible to
get some information about the proportions of rebels and Tories
in different areas (colonies), and the sizes and compositions of the
armies on each side?  The reason I ask is that a newspaper
article I once read, reporting a speech by a Canadian politician,
specifically said more Americans enlisted to fight with the British
than with the Continental Army.  He also quoted John Adams as saying
the division between loyalists and patriots was (from his point of
view) no better than even, and he should know.
Regards
Chris4

---

Request for Question Clarification by kriswrite-ga on 05 Jul 2003 12:40 PDT

Chris4~

Thank you for requesting me :)

I'm on a bit of a "holdiay leave" and will get to your question first
thing Monday morning!

Kriswrite

Hi again Chris4~

The John Adams quote is interesting. Although I can find a number of
sites that appear to quote Adams on this topic, or which paraphrase
him on it, none of them offers a specific, original source for the
quote. I can tell you that in my own personal library of American
history books, I can find no original source for the quote. This is
why I didn’t include it in my first answer: It may or may not be
accurate.

Most websites simply offer figures (one third patriot, one third
loyalists, one third undecided or neutral) and cite John Adams as
establishing these figures. Sites offering this information include:

•	“Loyalists” by Columbia Encyclopedia (
http://www.bartleby.com/65/lo/Loyalist.html )
•	“United Empire Loyalists” by Arnold Nethercott
(http://www.rootsweb.com/~canon/focuson-uel.html )
•	“On Patriots, Refugees, and the Right of Return” by Steven E. Plaut
(http://www.btzedek.co.il/patriots.htm )
•	“Loyalists” by Infoplease
(http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0830495.html )

One website offers this colorful quote, attributing it to Adams: “One
third are Patriots, one third are Loyalists and the rest don’t give a
damn one way or the other.” (“Flight of the Tories” by Mac Galway;
http://www.losttreasure.com/newsletter/2-1-2001/2-1-2001.html )

But yet another claims the quote goes this way: “only one-third of the
people supported the Patriot Cause. A second third wished to remain
loyal to ‘King and Country.’” ( “Who Were The Loyalists?”
http://www.petersnn.org/petersnn/Loyalists.html )

So you see there is some confusion here.

I also think it’s important to consider *when* these figures were
estimated. (Several sites listed above claim it was on “the eve of the
revolution.”) Literally, the men who founded this country were
rebels…criminals of a sort. Therefore, the majority of people would
not have sided with them—at least, not right away. But we all know the
tide of public opinion can vary greatly. By the end of the war, I
think it wouldn’t be too ridiculous to assume that the tide may have
swayed more toward patriotism than it did before the war.

The number of Tories vs. patriots rarely includes figures for
“neutrals,” either. An important consideration.

Information about the exact size of armies (except for certain
battles…and in those cases, those fighting for the Crown almost always
outnumber the patriots) is next to nill. However, I have found some
interesting figures for your consideration:
* “About half of NEW YORK’s residents were Tories, according to John
Adams and Alexander Hamilton. Of the more than 50,000 men drawn from
the Colonies who served with the British, New York provided 23,500.”
(“Diverse Battlefield Emerges,”
http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=58759 ) New
York was considered a heavily loyalists area.
* Here are some interesting insights into the breakdowns, as well as
figures for SOUTH CAROLINA: “Research by Robert S. Lambert indicates
that the prime source of Loyalist strength in South Carolina was the
newcomer, whether from the British Isles or Virginia, and the back
country had more of them in 1773…This is consistent with my own
family, which had both, and the younger ones seem to have been
Loyalists, while the older seem to have been patriots.  And, yes, this
is backwards from what some have stated in print.  Moore continues:
‘In addition, upland regions at that time had no real quarrel with
London, while the mere mention of Charleston could stir old wounds.’
Lambert estimates that one-fifth of this state’s free population could
have been classified as Loyalist during the struggle that followed. 
But, he cautions, as a result of the ebb and flow of war these same
individuals may have aided the patriot cause, too.  Lambert sees two
high points of Loyalist sentiment: at the outset of hostilities when
initial choices were being made and again in 1780 when British troops
invaded the state.” ( “Why Were Some of Our Ancestors Tories?”
http://sciway3.net/clark/revolutionarywar/loyalists.html . This site
offers some further information about just who the Tories and “I don’t
cares” were.)

•	Here’s a list of loyalists in GEORGIA, from an old Georgia
newspaper: (“Georgia Loyalists,”
http://www.rootsweb.com/~gataylor/loyalist.htm ). A similar list is
found here: http://www.petersnn.org/petersnn/Loyalists.html 
“Georgia's colonists were about equally divided into Loyalists and
patriots during the American Revolution,” claims Infoplease and
Columbia Encyclopedia ( http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/us/A0858375.html
and www.bartleby.com/65/ge/GeorgiaUS.html )

•	Here’s a list of loyalists from NORTH CAROLINA: (“North Carolina
Loyalists,” http://members.aol.com/HoseyGen/NCLOYAL.HTML )

* According to one site, in PENSYLVANIA, 490 people had their property
seized because they were Tories (“The Land Family Legacy,” found in
this Google cache for a limited time
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Pennsylvania+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search
)

•	In RHODE ISLAND, there was apparently a shortage of men willing to
fight in the American Continental Army. “By 1778, the American
Continental Army began to officially offer slaves the opportunity to
fight for the patriot cause. Rhode Island faced a shortage of white
male recruits and began to purchase the freedom of male slaves and
enlist them in the First Rhode Island Regiment.” (“Brothers–in–Arms
Recognizes role of African–American Patriots, Loyalists,” Colonial
Williamsburg, http://www.colonialwilliamsburg.com/Foundation/press_release/displayPressRelease.cfm?pressReleaseId=79
)

One final point, which is really my opinion and not necessarily fact
(although I think it’s an important point to make): For most of
American history, Americans have reveled in the fact that they won the
Revolutionary War despite the fact that patriots were well outnumbered
by those fighting for the Crown. From the time just after the war, to
recent years, most American have felt this fact was testimony to the
idea that “they were right,” their cause was strong, and that the
patriots must have “deserved” to win. Therefore, it seems logical to
me that information about large numbers of colonists fighting for the
Crown would *not* be buried. Such information would, I believe, only
continue to foster the above feelings. (Some might try to argue that
the opposite is true, but given how the patriots felt about and
treated colonial loyalists, I don’t think the “winners” would care
much that some “traitors” continued to bow down to the Crown.)

There is also a trend on some Canadian sites, I have noticed, to
bolster some of the figures found on American and European sites,
mostly regarding how many loyalist fled to Canada. (Please note: Not
on *all* Canadian sites, of course…but some.) And there is a trend
among some of today’s journalists to downplay what has traditionally
been seen as the “righteousness” of patriots during the Revolution.

Bearing these things in mind, I believe that traditional view (found
in my first answer to you:
http://answers.google.com/answers/main?cmd=threadview&id=224232 ) is
more accurate.

I hope this helps!
Kriswrite


Keywords Used:
"John Adams" loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22John+Adams%22+loyalists+patriots+&btnG=Google+Search

"John Adams" one third loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22John+Adams%22+one+third+loyalists+patriots+&btnG=Google+Search
"only one-third of the people supported the Patriot Cause. A second
third wished to remain loyal"
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:ZwvTMj1Yj9UJ:www.petersnn.org/petersnn/Loyalists.html+%22only+one-third+of+the+people+supported+the+Patriot+Cause.+A+second+third+wished+to+remain+loyal%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Canadian loyalists patriots "Revolutionary War"
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Canadian+loyalists+patriots+%22Revolutionary+War%22&btnG=Google+Search

Canadian one-third loyalists patriots "Revolutionary War"
://www.google.com/search?q=Canadian+one-third+loyalists+patriots+%22Revolutionary+War%22&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=40&sa=N

Connecticut "there were" loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Connecticut+%22there+were%22+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

Delaware "there were" loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Delaware+%22there+were%22+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

Georgia loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Georgia+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

Maryland loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Maryland+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

Massachusetts loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Massachusetts+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

"New Hampshire" loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22New+Hampshire%22+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

"New Jersey" loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22New+Jersey%22+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

"North Carolina" loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22North+Carolina%22+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

Pennsylvania loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Pennsylvania+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

"Rhode Island" loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=%22Rhode+Island%22+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

Virginia loyalists patriots
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Virginia+loyalists+patriots&btnG=Google+Search

Kriswrite,
Thank you for an amazingly deep and comprehensive answer.  It has
everything I needed.  Also, thank you Pafalafa, Markj, and Hlabadie.
Regards
Chris4           I have now thought of another question ......

Yesterday's (July 4) Washington Post ran an editorial, "The Fourth of
July" that makes the same point as your question -- that is, that
those fighting for independence were more or less a minority of the
population.  No citations or specific facts were offered, but they
certainly seemed to take this is a given.

You can see the first paragraph of the article here (I think...it's a
messy URL):

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=WP&p_theme=wpost&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_text_search-0=british&p_field_label-0=Section&p_text_label-0=Editorial&s_dispstring=british%20AND%20section(Editorial)%20AND%20date(last%20185%20days)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=-185qzD&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&xcal_useweights=no

You have to subscribe to the WashPost to get the full text.

Since the article was published within the last two weeks, you should
be able to access the complete text at this link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9741-2003Jul4.html

Whoops, wrong link.  Here's the correct link to the July 4 editorial
referenced by pafalafa-ga:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7432-2003Jul3.html

The traditional division of the populace was into thirds: 1/3
supported revolution, 1/3 were loyalists, and 1/3 were neutral. This
assessment has been attributed to John Adams.

1n 1779, there were 21 regiments of Loyalists, outnumbering
Washington's army by 2:1.


hlabadie-ga

hist110/unit2/rev.html
Overheads for Unit 2, Lecture 2
http://www.humboldt.edu/~go1/hist110/unit2/rev.html

"Things You Might Like to Know About the Revolutionary War

* One-third of all Americans continued to oppose the War.  In fact, in
1779, three [sic] were more Americans fighting with the British than
with Washington: 21 regiments of Loyalists consisting of between
6500-8000 men, compared with Washington’s field army of 3488.

* About 100,000 Loyalists fled America when the war broke out.  The
vast majority lost all their property and were not able to return
after the war."

hlabadie-ga