Just watched a Clint Eastwood film circa 1979 and was surprised to
find that even as relatively close as only approximately 24 years back
that infuriating habit that movie makers had in the 60s of calling an
obviously full bodied prime example of womanhood a girl rather than
the woman she obviously was, was still in vogue. On this particular
film the beautiful lady co-star was clearly in her mid to late
twenties and although every inch a woman was still relegated
 to "the girl" status when Clint needed to refer to her on the phone
to a third party. This was by no means the worst example I have seen
as another film I remember seeing had several "girls" as co stars who
although most in their mid twenties at least a couple were obviously
30+ but still apparently did not make the grade as a bonafide woman,
as per the movie script. In fact it appears  virtually all movies of
that era referred to any woman up to around early 30s as no more than
a girl. I am thinking there must have been an approximate point in
time at which  young women generally were given the respect they
deserve and referred to as "the woman" or "a woman" rather than " the
girl" in most films, but just when was that rough point in the
calender reached??

Johnfrommelbourne

---

Request for Question Clarification by journalist-ga on 01 Aug 2003 11:45 PDT

Did any of our comments provide the needed insight, John?  You've
asked a very interesting question!

Greetings John:

My opinion is this:

Up until the time a female reaches her first menstrual cycle, she is
definitely a girl.  After that, she is physically a woman.  She may be
a young woman or an older woman or a middle-aged woman but once she is
able to bear children, she is technically a woman.

Pagan beliefs cite the three ages of a female as Maiden
(pre-menstrual), Mother (ability to bear children, menstrual) and
Crone (post-menstrual).  This is probably the most accurate "aging"
guide.  Hans Baldung Grien painted "Three Ages of a Woman and Death" -
see http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/b/baldung/1/06_3ages.html

To call a woman "a girl" is incorrect but flattering to any female,
especially those of us over the age of 30.  lol

I didn't feel this constituted an answer since it's only opinion and I
wanted to share my thoughts on the matter.

Best regards,
journalist-ga


SEARCH STRATEGY:

"ages of a woman"

Thankyou very much journalist for a different but interesting insight
into question.
  You have been a good girl!!  

 Maybe I will get some more interesting comments as I suspect question
is probably a little difficult to answer in its  current form, i.e how
would one go about finding an answer to such a question in the short
term

Dear John:

I tried a few different searches but couldn't locate a definitive
chart about the ages of a woman.  Additionally, I found the following
by searching "the ages of a woman":

From http://www.flsouthern.edu/eng/ceskin/renwomen_links.htm

"This is an excerpt taken from The Law’s Resolutions of Women’s
Rights; Or, the Law’s Provision for Women, and written by an anonymous
author known only as T.E. The work deals with a woman’s life in three
stages: the unmarried virgin, the married wife, and the widow. This
excerpt outlines how a woman’s age affects her eligibility in society.

Sect. iv. The ages of a woman.

The learning is 35 Hen[ry] 6 fol. 40 that a woman hath diverse special
ages. At the seventh year of her age, her father shall have aid of her
tenants to marry her. At nine years age, she is able to deserve and
have dower. At twelve years to consent to marriage. At fourteen to be
hors du guard. At sixteen to be past the Lord's tender of a husband.
At twenty one to be able to make a feoffement. And per Ingelton
therein the end of the case. A woman married at twelve cannot disagree
afterward. But if she be married younger, she may dissent till she be
fourteen.

--JoyBeurrier"

*************************************

From http://www.cherlyn.org/oldsite/goddesses_gallery.html

"The phases of the lunar cycle represent the ages of a woman's life.
The waxing (increasing) moon is the time of the new child, full of
youth, vitality, growth; the maiden before menstruation.

The full moon is the time of the mother.  The adult woman in her
power, choosing to be fertile or not for this cycle. The energy here
is strong and powerful.  A strength and power that many women today
fear.

The waning moon is the time of the crone, the woman after menopause
who no longer bleeds or gives birth. She holds her power within her,
and this inward power lays the roots for the beginning of the next
cycle."

The crone stage is also sometimes referred to as "holding the wise
blood".

Hope this helps and I'll keep this question in mind today - perhaps
I'll find the best phrase to locate more information.

Best regards,
journalist-ga

Dear johnfrommelbourne,

I have wondered the same question myself.  I think it was the advent
of the youth culture of the 60s.  I agree that calling a woman a
"girl" is patronizing, and similar in respect to the unfortunate trait
of referring to black men as 'boys'.

I saw an I LOVE LUCY once where Lucy and Ethel were looking through
want ads.  They saw an ad for "girls".  Ethel commented that they
weren't "girls", and Lucy said they were 'girls' compared to 'boys'. 
That suggested to me that in the time of that show, women were indeed
still called women.  So, the switch occurred between the 50's and the
70's.

Good luck in your search
PbA
Google Answers Researcher

In general, until recently, calling someone a "girl" indicated that
she is still (presumably) a maiden or virgin. If the film was a
western, it was most appropriate for them to call the woman a girl is
she was supposed to be never-married, since this would have been
correct for the time period (not that westerns are necessarily
historically accurate!).

Kriswrite

Kris:

That's cool.  Where did you find that?

Journalist, it's one of those odd bits of fact I've picked up from
years of being fascinated with social history. You should see my
personal library of sex ed and etiquette books...all at least 100
years old, of course :)

Kriswrite

Just my two penn'orth on the subject... and I realise it doesn't
attempt to answer the question.

My fiancee is, at 37, most definitely a woman under any of the
criteria mentioned above. I use various terms when talking to her
including girl, lass and woman, often accompanied by different
adjectives. I also use different diminutives of her name, and more
than anything else I call her twin (in a mystic not a literal sense,
naturally).

I have never used any of these terms in a patronising sense and never
would. However she finds them all endearing and has said so. I always
have a smile in my eyes even when saying 'hush, woman!'. I wouldn't
say it otherwise.

I believe that any word, used to describe anybody, is only patronising
if it is meant to be. For instance, certain words are anathema when
used by whites to describe blacks yet are acceptable when used by
blacks to describe each other.

Poe

Honestly, it was news to me when I heard here that the motion picture
industry discontinued this bad habit.

If you go to Internet Movie Database ( http://us.imdb.com/Find ) and
search for movie characters named "the girl" you will quickly see that
this practice is far from dead.

Regards;
tutuzdad-ga

I fail to see what the problem is.  I am 28 (and white) and can still
be called a boy.  I will even call a guy in his 30s a boy, as in "that
boy is hot!"  Some feminists just seem a bit too touchy.

I am not a feminist but I disagree with journalists blanket statement
that all women like to be called "girls". I hate it, personally. I
hate hearing grown women called girls constantly. I find it degrading.
I'm often called a "guy" as in "Hi guys, how are you?" when I'm with a
man or a group. If I'm with another woman it becomes, "Hello ladies."
I hate being referred to as a "guy" or a "girl". "Lady" is a bit
better but why people are so terrified of just saying "woman" is
beyond me. It's not hard to say it, but I think it connotes power and
calling someone a girl makes her less threatening.

I've long figured that the dividing line is 18 years; at that point
the girl becomes legally an adult and should be referred to as such.
But I've been surprised within the past year or so to hear many, many
women, particularly celebrities, referred to as girls.  Here's an
appalling example:
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&q=%22charlie%27s+angels%22+%22three+girls%22&spell=1