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| Subject:
What date was the Sir Charles Sidley trial in 1663?
Category: Sports and Recreation > Trivia Asked by: soylent-ga List Price: $30.00 |
Posted:
20 Apr 2002 02:24 PDT
Expires: 20 Apr 2003 02:24 PDT Question ID: 2265 |
Pepys' diary relates to us the story of Sir Charles Sidley, who in 1663 exposed himself and purportedly relieved himself on the crowd below. The result is essentially the first obscenity trial on record. I want to know 1. The exact date this event occurred or, 2. The exact date of the conviction or, 3. Both! This is not particularly easy to find. ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/etext03/sp30g10.txt pepys' diary july 1 1663 Thence by water with Sir W. Batten to Trinity House, there to dine with him, which we did; and after dinner we fell talking, Sir J. Minnes, Mr. Batten and I; Mr. Batten telling us of a late triall of Sir Charles Sydly the other day, before my Lord Chief Justice Foster and the whole bench, for his debauchery a little while since at Oxford Kate's, coming in open day into the Balcone and showed his nakedness, . . . . and abusing of scripture and as it were from thence preaching a mountebank sermon from the pulpit, saying that there he had to sell such a powder as should make all the [women] in town run after him, 1000 people standing underneath to see and hear him, and that being done he took a glass of wine . . . . and then drank it off, and then took another and drank the King's health. It seems my Lord and the rest of the judges did all of them round give him a most high reproof; my Lord Chief justice saying, that it was for him, and such wicked wretches as he was, that God's anger and judgments hung over us, calling him sirrah many times. It's said they have bound him to his good behaviour (there being no law against him for it) in L5000. Legal reference to this case: n3 (1663) 1 Keb 620, 1 Sid 168; see 17State Tr 155, Pepys's Diary, 1st July 1663 |
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| Subject:
Re: What date was the Sir Charles Sidley trial in 1663?
Answered By: shal-ga on 20 Apr 2002 17:19 PDT |
Dear soylent,
Thank you for your very intriguing question about a quite interesting
event. It appears, however, that the exact date of neither the trial nor the
conviction is certain. The citations you provided were very helpful in
distinguishing the most bona fide sources regarding this case. Neither the
Keble book (1 Keb 620 1663), nor the English Report (vol.83 Eng.Rep.1146),
which lists a replication of the official record of the case, provides an exact
date. I confirmed this with the UC Hastings Law Library reference librarian
who pulled the actual documents from their archives. This library can be
contacted at
http://www.uchastings.edu/library/
and their reference desk can be reached at (415) 565-4751. References of this
case are found in the Supreme Court Cases, Memoirs vs. Massachusetts 383US 413
(1966), and United States v. 12,200-Ft. Reels of Film, 413US 123 (1973). In
the former case, Justice Douglass writes the following excerpt:
Nor is there any basis in the legal history antedating the First Amendment for
the creation of an obscenity exception. Memoirs v. Massachusetts, 383 U.S. 413,
424 (DOUGLAS, J., concurring). The first reported case involving obscene
conduct was not until 1663. There, the defendant was fined for "shewing himself
naked in a balkony, and throwing down bottles (pist in) vi & armis among the
people in Convent Garden, contra pacem, and to the scandal of the Government."
Sir Charles Sydlyes Case, 83 Eng. Rep. 1146-1147 (K. B. 1663). Rather than
being a fountainhead for a body of law proscribing obscene literature, later
courts viewed this case simply as an instance of assault, criminal breach of
the peace, or indecent exposure. E. g., Bradlaugh v. Queen, L. R. 3 Q. B. 569,
634 (1878); Rex v. Curl, 93 Eng. Rep. 849, 851 (K. B. 1727) (Fortescue, J.,
dissenting).
FindLaw.com:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.plnavby=case&court=us&vol=383&page
=413.
In the latter case, United States v. 12,200-Ft. Reels of Film, 413US 123
(1973), the following excerpt is written in the footnotes:
The Sir Charles Sydlyes Case, 1 Keble 620 (K. B. 1663). . . made a public
appearance on a London balcony while nude, intoxicated, and talkative. He
delivered a lengthy speech to the assembled crowd, uttered profanity, and
hurled bottles containing what was later described as an "offensive liquor"
upon the crowd. The proximate source of the "offensive liquor" appears to have
been Sir Charles. Alpert, Judicial Censorship of Obscene Literature, 52 Harv.
L. Rev. 40-43 (1938).
FindLaw.com:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?
navby=case&court=us&vol=413&page=123.
Through my research I believe it is justified to conclude that the exact date
of the trial and verdict in The King vs. Sir Charles Sidley is not published,
nor precisely known.
Additional Websites that may interest you:
Findlaw.com U.S. Supreme Court obscenity cases.
http://www.findlaw.com/01topics/06constitutional/cases.html
Findlaw.com recent U.S. Supreme Court Cases.
http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/supreme.html
Galaxy.com a list of U.S. law libraries
http://www.galaxy.com/hytelnet/US000LAW.html
Search Terms Used:
Sidley
Sydlyes
The King vs. Sir Charles Sidley
Pepys Diary |
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| Subject:
Re: What date was the Sir Charles Sidley trial in 1663?
From: grimace-ga on 20 Apr 2002 04:11 PDT |
The closest I've come to finding a date for this fascinating incident is at http://www.thefileroom.org/FileRoom/publication/atkinshistory.html This gives the date of the offense as June, 1663. This makes sense as far as the British climate is concerned - you'd have to be very drunk to go naked in Covent Garden in, say, April - but it seems like an astonishingly short time for the case to go to court. If Pepys was recording the event as happening 'the other day' in July of '63, then there must have only been at most a few weeks between arrest and trial, which sounds ridiculous to me. Still, I'm no expert in seventeenth century law, I'm afraid. There are some more lurid details - which Pepys is too prudish (?) to mention - at http://www.wvu.edu/~wvjolt/Arch/Saunde/Saunde.htm |
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