Please can someone give some guidance to a novice who is trying to
help his first client.

Briefly, the site in question has the URL of
www.pengarthaustwick.co.uk. This is redirected by the web-space host
to www.austwick-nyorks.fsnet.co.uk. Fsnet or Freeserve are my clients
ISP.

Apparently it appeared briefly a while back on googles results but
only if you searched austwick + bed + breakfast. Now it doesn't appear
at all. You can still get to the site by typing in the url:
www.pengarthaustwick.co.uk or googles search criteria of
://www.google.com/search?q=austwick+%2B+Bed+%2B+Breakfast&hl=en&lr=&ie=U.
 
My conclusions (and this is where I need the help) were - 
a) its been 'de-listed' by google through lack of hits? - Although the
client advises they were hitting it and in my experience as the search
engine searches on text, even if it came up 500th of 500 entries it
would still get returned. Now, absolutely Zip. Do google de-list sites
below a certain hit rate or something?
b) unsure how/why the guy who originally did the site (uncontactable
due to extremely bad health) would say the site is only searchable
with 'austwick + bed +breakfast' when searching - no-one would search
this way to find 1 site and I can't see anything in the simple html
that would mean this would be the only thing that would retrieve the
site - is this something in the submission of the URL to google or
somesuch? The only clue I am guessing at is in the meta name
"keywords" tag where there are no spaces after each word. But I
thought keywords, whilst they used to be important a few years back
for 'other engines', are not important as google looks at the text on
the page? This wouldn't explain why it appeared then disappeared
either.
c) using google's link:URL  function to find what pages link to the
site yielded no results either for the URL itself or the re-directed
URL. However, ther is a link to it on www.ytb.org.uk. Does this mean
it will never be listed by google as no-links 'appear' point to the
site? Is there some minimum number of links to a site that it must
have before it will be listed?
d) when you reach the site its the webspace address, i.e.
www.austwick-nyorks.fsnet.co.uk is displayed and not the actual URL of
the site. This might be me being stupid again but, even thoough
re-directed, I thought the 'base' URL would be displayed.

Please note picking text from the site and searching: "Yorkshire Dales
Bed and Breakfast", does, of course, find other sites.

I have subsequently re-submitted both URL addresses in a vain attempt
to 'see what happens'

I know this is repeating the time honoured question and I have tried
to read extensively on Googles guidelines and the FAQs so apologies
for the amount of research above and I really hope for a simple
answer. In essence my clients just want to see their site and
hopefully, with enough hits, improve their ranking. They are not
looking for the world -yet!

Many thanks and all help gratefully received as this is all still a
relative mystery to me but I feel I have tried to reseach it as much
as possible but cannot work out the answer/s.

Greetings, musikski!

Let's see what we can do to help you get this site straightened out.

a) its been 'de-listed' by google through lack of hits?

Google does not de-list or ban a site based on the number of times
that people click on it in Search Results -- nor does Google improve
or degrade a site's Page Rank for the number of times people click on
it.

As for the real cause, I'd say it's due to the fact that there are 2
URLs with a redirect between them.
From "Google Information for Webmasters":
"Quality Guidelines - Specific recommendations:

...Don't employ cloaking or sneaky redirects."
://www.google.com/webmasters/guidelines.html


b) unsure how/why the guy who originally did the site (uncontactable
due to extremely bad health) would say the site is only searchable
with 'austwick + bed +breakfast' when searching.

I'm not sure why he would have said that, either. A site will be
indexed based on its ***text*** content and NOT by its <meta>
keywords, anyway.

For instance, you can see how Google would index the "keywords" from
this site by plugging it into SearchEngineWorld's Keyword Density
Analyzer at:
http://www.searchengineworld.com/cgi-bin/kwda.cgi

(be sure to choose
"Ignore words of 2 characters in length or less."
so as to catch the occurrences of the word "bed")

Total Words: 26 
Occurrences : 87 
Count  Word  Density 
--------------------
8 8211 9.2% 
7 8221 8.05% 
6 8220 6.9% 
5 breakfast 5.75% 
5 pengarth 5.75% 
5 yorkshire 5.75% 
4 austwick 4.6% 
4 bed 4.6% 
3 8217 3.45% 
3 accommodation 3.45% 
3 just 3.45% 
3 north 3.45% 
3 room 3.45% 
3 settle 3.45% 
3 suite 3.45% 
2 a65 2.3% 
2 comfortable 2.3% 
2 feel 2.3% 
2 homemade 2.3% 
2 hospitality 2.3% 
2 imagine 2.3% 
2 lovely 2.3% 
2 miles 2.3% 
2 served 2.3% 
2 situated 2.3% 
2 want 2.3 

2 Word Phrases: 11 
Occurrences : 28 
Count  Word        Density 
--------------------------
5 8221 8220 17.86% 
4 bed breakfast 14.29% 
3 north yorkshire 10.71% 
2 accommodation situated 7.14% 
2 austwick north 7.14% 
2 breakfast suite 7.14% 
2 just a65 7.14% 
2 miles settle 7.14% 
2 pengarth austwick 7.14% 
2 situated just 7.14% 
2 suite accommodation 7.14% 

3 Word Phrases: 6 
Occurrences : 12 
Count   Word                 Density 
------------------------------------
2 accommodation situated just 16.67% 
2 austwick north yorkshire 16.67% 
2 bed breakfast suite 16.67% 
2 breakfast suite accommodation 16.67% 
2 situated just a65 16.67% 
2 suite accommodation situated 16.67% 

NOTE that, because of the redirect, you have to enter the URL
http://www.austwick-nyorks.fsnet.co.uk
to get these results; using
http://www.pengarthaustwick.co.uk
just returns a bunch of zeroes.


c) using google's link:URL  function to find what pages link to the
site yielded no results either for the URL itself or the re-directed
URL.

Google's link: and links: functions work only for websites with a Page
Rank of 4 or higher, and will only return those backward links which
are on pages with a PR of 4 or higher. Your client's site has a PR of
0.
You *can* find the backward links for a site with PR of 3 or less by
putting the URL into the Google search text box and clicking "Google
Search".
Unfortunately, it looks as if the database of accommodations on the
Yorkshire Tourist Board Web Site (www.ytb.org.uk) has not been indexed
by Google (probably due to the way the database is set up), either:

pengarth site:www.ytb.org.uk
://www.google.com/search?q=pengarth+site%3Awww.ytb.org.uk
reveals no results.


d) when you reach the site its the webspace address, i.e.
www.austwick-nyorks.fsnet.co.uk is displayed and not the actual URL of
the site. This might be me being stupid again but, even thoough
re-directed, I thought the 'base' URL would be displayed.

This is due to the way that the redirect has been set up.


The bottom line is that your client needs to pick ONE URL, and load
their website at that URL. The other URL can contain one page which
says "Please visit our main website at:
http://<<whichever URL they choose>>
with the URL a clickable hyperlink (DON'T make this page an
auto-redirect!)

Any links that your client gets should all be for the URL that has
been chosen as the primary site; links to the secondary site will not
help their Page Rank.


Before Rating my Answer, if you have any questions about the above
information, please post a Request for Clarification, and I will be
see what I can do for you.

Best Wishes on helping your client to attain a highly-ranked listing
on Google!
  
Regards, 
  
aceresearcher

---

Request for Answer Clarification by musikski-ga on 15 Jul 2003 11:42 PDT

Thanks for all the research and apologies if alot of this was run of
the mill.

A couple of points for clarification if you could oblige.

Firstly on point a) and point d) We were unaware that we were doing
any cloaking, just that the we-bspace owener is fsnet.co.uk. The
client has paid for www.pengathaustwick.co.uk but their address at
their isp is www.austwick-nyorks.fsnet.co.uk with, as you point out a
re-direct in place. I thought this was how web-space at an ISP worked:
You have your URL but on searching you are re-directed to the address
of the actual web-space. Unless you own your own web-space that has
the same name as your URL how can you get around this. In otherwords,
I am not sure I can ask the ISP to re-name the webspace as, after all
the web-space is at fsnet.co.uk so all clients' sites there (a large
ISP in the UK) have to end this way. My client doesn't own any
web-space. As with everybody thats at his ISP but his URL has a
different address. I guess what I'm asking is how can I make
www.pengarthaustwick.co.uk the thing that gets indexed without my
client having to become an ISP/Web-space provider???

But this begs the question of what is the point of having
www.pengarthaustwick.co.uk if you can't actually use it. I maybe
getting mighty confused here but can't see how I can have
www.pengarthaustwick.co.uk as the target URL when the web-space
address is XXXXXXXX.fsnet.co.uk. Referring to point d) the client
doens't get a choice of what to load as the ISP IS fsnet.co.uk.
Lastly, there is no primary or secondary site - theres 1 site.

Secondly, point c) - If google haven't indext the ytb site how come
you can find it when searching? Again, maybe I've missed something
again!!

Cheers for all your experienced assistance to this inexperienced
starter!

---

Request for Answer Clarification by musikski-ga on 15 Jul 2003 14:41 PDT

Hi I fogot to add earlier - 

The fact that there are no links to the site (As far as google is
concerned) would that insure a rating of 0 or do sites still get
indexed at a higher level with no links - i.e. relating to content
only. I ask this as again I thought Google searched on text but only
indexed sites based on the number of other sites that link to it.

I know this is probably bugging you more than you need so if I am
asking too much please say and I will recompense another few bucks.

Thanks a million again, and again, and again..............

---

Clarification of Answer by aceresearcher-ga on 17 Jul 2003 10:29 PDT

Hello again, musikski!

You are correct, this is just a normal redirect, and Google should not
have a problem with it.

To get 
http://www.pengarthaustwick.co.uk
instead of 
http://www.austwick-nyorks.fsnet.co.uk
to show up in the Address bar, you need to have the DNS (Domain Name
Server)record changed to redirect it in an invisible frame.

To find out how to do that, you should start by contacting your
client's Registrar; they are the ones who control the DNS unless your
client uses the web-host services for that.

Your client's Registrar info can be found using a WhoIs search at the
UK Network Information Centre, Nominet:
http://www.nic.uk
-------------------------------------------------
    Domain Name:
        pengarthaustwick.co.uk
    Registrant:
        George Gooch
    Registrant's Agent:
        Amen ltd t/a Amenworld.com [Tag = AMEN]
        URL: http://www.amenworld.com
    Relevant Dates:
        Registered on:  12-Apr-2002
        Renewal Date:   12-Apr-2004
        Last updated:   22-Jan-2003
    Name servers listed in order:
        ns1.amenworld.com                 217.174.192.237
        ns2.amenworld.com                 195.154.205.8   
-------------------------------------------------
http://195.66.240.211/cgi-bin/whois.cgi?query=pengarthaustwick.co.uk&x=25&y=10


<< If google haven't indext the ytb site how come you can find it when
searching? >>
While the actual Yorkshire Tourist Board Web Site (www.ytb.org.uk)
*has* been indexed by Google, it appears that the **database** of
accommodations on that site has NOT been indexed  (probably due to the
way the database is set up, although it may just be that Google has
only indexed a certain number of pages from that site, which is
typical if a site has hundreds of pages). Unfortunately, that database
is where the link to your client's site resides.

Something that you *can* try, however, is to submit that URL:
http://www.visitbritain.com/search/serviced/detail.asp?record=0430911B&place=Austwick&id=&oid=&gw=search

to be crawled by the Googlebot here:
://www.google.com/addurl.html

That might get the link from the Yorkshire Tourist Board Web Site
recognized by the Googlebot, and thus help your client's Page Rank.


<< The fact that there are no links to the site (As far as google is
concerned) would that insure a rating of 0 or do sites still get
indexed at a higher level with no links - i.e. relating to content
only. I ask this as again I thought Google searched on text but only
indexed sites based on the number of other sites that link to it. >>

Google will index sites which it deems "worthwhile" or "relevant" --
usually this happens if the Googlebot decides that there is enough
text content on a site to justify indexing.

However, a site's **Page Rank** (importance) is determined by a
complex algorithm which takes into consideration more than 100
different factors; the number of other "important" sites which link
back to that site is the biggest factor.

For some excellent, in-depth information on how Google Page Ranking
works, I encourage you to read the following excellent papers:
 
"The Google Pagerank Algorithm and How It Works" by Ian Rogers, IPR
Computing Ltd. (Last edited: 16th May 2002):
http://www.iprcom.com/papers/pagerank/index.html     
    
"PageRank Uncovered" by Chris Ridings on the Search Engine
Optimization Support Forums website:
a page of explanation and examples:     
http://www.supportforums.org/pagerank     
  
"PageRank Uncovered" by Chris Ridings     
http://www.supportforums.org/PageRank.pdf     
(This is an Acrobat .pdf document. If you do not already have Acrobat
installed on your PC, you can download the free Acrobat Reader here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html  )     
 
"Google's PageRank Explained and how to make the most of it" by Phil
Craven on WebWorkshop.com:
http://webworkshop.net/pagerank.html  


Best Wishes for both you and your client's success!

ace

---

Request for Answer Clarification by musikski-ga on 27 Jul 2003 05:15 PDT

Hello again aceresearcher and many many thanks for your advice and
direction towards the papers you detailed. I promise this will be the
last time I come back but I think I need to clarify down to words of
one syllable to advise my client.

Let us remember the premise of my original enquiry is to get the site
ranked and remain that way so that it will be found, and continue to
be 'seen' by Google. So just to convert your excellent advice and
insight I will attempt to summarise -
1) Change DNS setting.  
I should contact Amenworld to ask. I presume this will mean the change
to the site you detqailed or could/would it just be a change at
Amenworlds end?
2) Submit the link as per your instructions. 
But, as you say this does not guarantee a higher ranking. 
3) Previous Point made when I first contacted Google. 
You remember from my original points I mentioned the site did briefly
appear after searching but then disaapeared so it, presuambaly, did
have a ranking higher than 0 but was subsequently demoted. This I
still don't understand. No links have been added or taken away and the
site has not changed content.

Putting it in context this is a simple, 1 page commercial site that
ceases to have any commercial value if it can never be found or if
every 2 - 3 months (or every month) it has to be re-submittted. So,
lastly, and finally, at the very end (tether and understanding!) will
the site's rank ever be raised if it is not linked to any other sites
google recognises for whatever reasons, remember its only 1 page
advertising a b&b in Yorkshire - there must be 100's like this and all
cannot be languishing in Rank 0 hell. In other words to have a Rank
higher than 0 or to be found (Was that rank 4?) you MUST MUST MUST be
linked to other sites if you have a really small site like my clients
and on analysis of this very small content Google has previously given
a rank of 0. Its a small site, not much content etc.

As before I will willingly contribute a further $5 for all your
'acetime' but, concluding, we just need the site listed and to stay
that way. The only positives I can see are
- the site should maybe be bigger (work for me!), with more content,
so that Google 'may' rate it more highly on its content alone and
-  make the DNS changes and 
- Link, Link LINK! that appears to be the nub of all we can do. 

It just seems so massively complicated when there are hundereds of
similar, simple sites out there with no problems - I'm sure you get my
drift - i.e. Whilst an element of rocket science clearly goes on
behind the scenes, to the casual user/site owner whoses site is found
by google it does not appear to be rocket science at all.

I know I've kept going on and on and on so I better sign off. 

Cheers, 
musikski.

---

Request for Answer Clarification by musikski-ga on 04 Aug 2003 07:44 PDT

Hi aceresearcher,

Hope all is well but I guess you have been busy but I have added some
further comments to your last answer.

Many thanks,
musikski.

Good answer, and a lot of valuable information but we are still not
there as I left a final request for clarification to summarise the
problem and proposed actions but, regretably received, no reply.
Possibly aceresearcher may have got bugged by my 'wordy' requests for
further clarification or may be on vacation/holiday.