I don't know if I can push my deadline for this past tomorrow
(Thursday)afternoon. I need to find out the following for Chicago, IL
and Dayton, OH:

If there are any legal requirements or advisories for the distance
between "No Trespassing" signs placed along fencing, in order to be considered
adequate warning (e.g., unlikely to be disputed successfully in
court). These would be signs on fencing around school grounds.

We are hoping to get as close as possible to actual codes, laws,
statutes or distances; not vague language such as "conspicuous" or
"reasonable." I have also already heard "No requirements that I know
of" from a couple county clerks, but it was clearly guessing.

For an answer, if it's anything besides a clearly exact answer to the
question, please first post the nature of what it is you did find that
sounds pretty close to you (e.g., a recent case precedent). Again, the
only two cities for which this data is needed appear above, but if it
turns out there is a federal law instead, that would of course be
fine. THANKS!!

Dear 4u2do-ga;

Thank you for allowing me an opportunity to answer your interesting
question.

With regard to the law, actions are presumed to be permissible in the
absence of specific legal restrictions. That is to say that unless the
law expressly prohibits an activity, that activity can be presumed to
be legal. Having said that, here are the legal references from which
these “clerks” probably drew their limited information. Their
confusion was probably caused by the LACK of law with regard to these
signs rather than their inability to recall it. In fact, their
statement “No requirements that I know of” is a fairly accurate
description of the situation, as it currently exists:

The only near reference in the Chicago Municipal Code to “no
trespassing” signage states:

8-4-52	Anti-loitering and/or trespassing program.

“(c)     Any person owning or controlling property in the program area
on which there is situated a parking lot or open space upon which
vehicle may be parked shall erect and maintain signs stating "No
Loitering" and "No Trespassing." The signs shall be displayed in a
manner that makes them clearly visible from the sidewalk or street.
The department of police shall enforce such signs at all times.”

MUNICODE ONLINE CODES
http://livepublish.municode.com/10/lpext.dll/Infobase24/1/751a/758e?f=templates&fn=altmain-nf.htm&q=trespassing&x=Simple&2.0



Dayton, Ohio’s Code of Ordinances is similarly absent any special
requirements. It states only that signs should not obstruct the view
of drivers on streets and alleys approaching intersections or project
or cross over a street or thoroughfare.

TITLE 12: STREETS AND OTHER PUBLIC WAYS AND PLACES
CHAPTER 1, SECTIONS 12-103 THROUGH 12-105
http://mtas-notes.ips.utk.edu/public/municodesweb.nsf/0/816c4bc641ab9b0385256928005c0345/$FILE/daytont-12.pdf

While some villages, communities or outlying area may indeed have
ordinances of their own that address this issue, in neither of these
particular city municipal codes or city ordinances mentioned above is
the spacing of “no trespassing” signage specifically addressed or
governed. It appears then that the information you received from the
“clerks”, albeit a guess on their part is in fact accurate. So - nail
away! If you use common sense and don't put signs one inch apart for
300 years you probably won't generate any unwanted attention
whatsoever.

I hope I helped you meet your rapidly approaching deadline. Below you
will find that I have carefully defined my search strategy for you in
the event that you need to search for more information. By following
the same type of searches that I did you may be able to enhance the
research I have provided even further. I hope you find that that my
research exceeds your expectations. If you have any questions about my
research please post a clarification request prior to rating the
answer. Otherwise, I welcome your rating and your final comments and I
look forward to working with you again in the near future. Thank you
for bringing your question to us.

Best regards;
Tutuzdad-ga


INFORMATION SOURCES

TITLE 12: STREETS AND OTHER PUBLIC WAYS AND PLACES
CHAPTER 1, SECTIONS 12-103 THROUGH 12-105
http://mtas-notes.ips.utk.edu/public/municodesweb.nsf/0/816c4bc641ab9b0385256928005c0345/$FILE/daytont-12.pdf

MUNICODE ONLINE CODES
8-4-53	ANTI-LOITERING AND/OR TRESPASSING PROGRAM.
http://livepublish.municode.com/10/lpext.dll/Infobase24/1/751a/758e?f=templates&fn=altmain-nf.htm&q=trespassing&x=Simple&2.0


SEARCH STRATEGY


SEARCH ENGINE USED:

Google ://www.google.com


SEARCH TERMS USED:

Alternatively used the search terms “Dayton” and “Chicago” with the
following:

NO TRESPASSING SIGNS

SPACING NO TRESPASSING SIGNS

DISTANCE NO TRESPASSING SIGNS

SPACING SIGNS

DISTANCE SIGNS

CITY ORDINANCE

MUNICIPAL CODES

REQUIREMENTS NO TRESPASSING SIGNS

NO TRESPASSING SIGNS SCHOOLS

NO TRESPASSING SIGNS FENCES

---

Request for Answer Clarification by 4u2do-ga on 09 Jul 2003 22:35 PDT

Thanks so much; your answer does nicely address whether any specific
requirements exist. I just thought I'd ask if, in your research, you
saw any examples, references, cases, etc. For example, I found an EPA
decision wherein the signs were required every 200 feet around a
defunct toxic manufacturing site with a broken fence, and that wasn't
being cleaned up yet. I'm guessing that is of as "grave" of a nature
as it gets, and could therefore be considered conservative placement
advice. If I find a few such conservative cases, I can kind of average
them.

My sign distancing question evolved from schools wanting advice on
prudent fence placement of the signs. They want to make sure they have
covered themselves well in warning off potential trespassers -- and
being able to maintain in the event of trouble that they met this
responsibility. But of course they don't want to spend unlimited
amounts on signage or create eyesores, either.

So sorry to bother you; thanks regardless! Just thought I'd ask right
away if you recalled seeing any such references or likely sources for
them (pertaining to any geographical area at all).

---

Clarification of Answer by tutuzdad-ga on 10 Jul 2003 07:15 PDT

Dear 4u2do-ga;

Honestly, I don't know about any EPA rules regarding trespassing
signage nor did I run across any cases in my research. That's not to
say they don't exist but I was primarily focused on the Chicago and
Dayton requirements pertaining to signs, fences and privately owned
and school properties.

As far as the school having valid complaints against trespassers, I
can say this: In my 20+ years in law enforcement, experience has
indicated that such postings, especially at state funded properties
where there is a concern for the safety of children (i.e., schools,
school activities, daycare centers, playgrounds, etc.) the lack of
warning signage is normally not a reasonable defense under the law. As
you probably know already, ignorance of the law is not an excuse for
violating the law. A warning therefore is not a prerequisite for
enforcement. Since city ordinances cannot supercede state law, issues
related to signage on a local level normally only address the issues
of appearance, size and placement of signs rather than mandate the use
of them.

Regardless of how a sign is posted, whether a sign complies with local
requirements, or if in fact a sign is posted at all, a school with a
valid complaint against a trespasser will likley prevail in a criminal
court assuming the charge can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

I look forward to working with you again in the near future.

Regards;
tutuzdad-ga

Thanks Tutuzdad, you did hit the target. I asked for 'yes' or 'no' as
to existence of requirements, and indeed that is what I got! I now
feel comfortable maintaining that they do not exist. (Instead I'll set
out to glean an average from any remotely comparable case precedents
anywhere in the country. Am now also going down the Board of Education
safety & security-related departments road.)

It will prove useful in the future to know about that livepublish site
you turned me on to (the link didn't want to work, but I got into it
through Google). Very helpful!

Oh, wanted to tell you -- just in case it came out wrong -- that in my
answer clarification request I hadn't meant to ask if you knew or
would also locate EPA or any specific agency laws; had just wondered
if you'd seen *any* citings of feet/yards apart in regard to any
instance of trespass signs as you searched. Just making sure I didn't
sound difficult!  = )

From a quick lookaround, it appears the only explicit legal
regulations of such signs are typically with regards to their size,
not spacing. Therefore, you're likely looking for something in case
law. Finding such a specific example for a particular city may prove
to be difficult.

I also get the impression that any such limit is going to be somewhat
larger than you'd probably want to use. Unless you're trying to lure
trespassers in and then prosecute them, it might be a good idea to
simply space the signs rather conservatively, perhaps every 25-75
yards. I also suspect that the mere presence of a fence should serve
as sufficient notice of private property.

Thanks, Alexander! If you happen by this thread again, I was wondering
if your profession, experience or searching led you to the 25-75 yard
guesstimate; or if it is "layperson common sense." I ask just because
what I'll end up doing now is indeed just average a few
conservative-type examples.