Hello,
  I'm looking for a word (possibly from game theory) that means a
situation that where it is no longer possible to win.  My lunatic Star
Trek friends call this a Kobiashi Moru, but I'd like a word I could
use around adults (he said sarcastically).  In particular I'm looking
for a word to contrast with the word quagmire which means a sticky
situation where it is difficult to disengage.  Some people use this
word meaning an un-winnable situation, but thats not really what it
means.  All help is appreciated.

Hi mrtrivia    ,

You could use the word un-winnable,  however, the word 'No-Win' or
'Lose-Lose' or 'Predicament' in a situation sounds better to me.

(Meaning: There is no light at the end of the tunnel!)

For example: 
I found myself in a lose-lose situation, or It was a no-win situation,
or This is a terrible predicament!

Here's some examples of the words found on the web:

This week's Monday Magazine
http://www.mondaymag.com/monday/editorial/46_2001/thisweek.htm

"Some were critical of our assertions about the unwinnable nature of
war, while many more were glad to read that..."
*****


Badgers make best of no-win situation
http://www.wisinfo.com/northwestern/sports/archive/sports_7352934.shtml

"The in-state contests are a no-win situation for Wisconsin because a
win merely means it did what it was supposed to do, and a loss. .."
*****


The Jargon Dictionary: Terms : The L Terms
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/l.html#lose 

"lose lose  interj.    A reply to or comment on an undesirable
situation. "I accidentally deleted all my files!" "Lose, lose."
*****

BookSurge
http://www.booksurge.com/author.php3?accountID=WLDS00041

The Unwilling Warlord
 
"A STAR RISES IN THE SOUTH 
When the foreigners confronted Sterren in Ethshar of the Spices he was
uneasy; when they all but abducted him, taking him to an obscure
kingdom in the south, he knew he was in a terrible predicament."
*****

Google search:

unwinnable, lose-lose, no-win, predicament, quagmire

Best regards,

tlspiegel

---

Request for Answer Clarification by mrtrivia-ga on 23 Jul 2003 15:23 PDT

No-win is close, though clumsy. Lose-Lose doesn't work, for example
you can be in a situation where the best possible outcome is a draw,
no win, no loss, but at the point you realize you can't win you're in
a special kind of predicament.  I'm not crazy about predicament
because it can be used to mean general trouble as in "You're in an
awful predicament, your foot is stuck in the well."  However, you'll
probably get your foot loose, so not really what I'm looking for.

Impasse, Gordian Knot, and Mexican Standoff all imply stalemate, which
is the best case scenario in the situation I'm looking to describe,
but these are all suitable in a way.

---

Clarification of Answer by tlspiegel-ga on 23 Jul 2003 16:15 PDT

Hi mrtrivia,

:)  Words!  :)

In your question you asked for a word that means a situation where it
is no longer possible to win.  I'm going to side with 'no-win' as
being the appropriate way of describing the event - no matter what you
do, it's a loss... no-win.

No-win situation: a situation that will end badly no matter what.
*****

Merriam-Webster defines 'no-win' as a situation that cannot be won.
 
Main Entry: no-win 
Pronunciation: 'nO-'win, -"win
Function: adjective
Date: 1962
: not likely to give victory, success, or satisfaction : that cannot
be won <a no-win situation> <a no-win war>
*****


Merrian-Webster defines 'stalemate' as meaning a drawn contest.   

Main Entry: 1stale·mate 
Pronunciation: 'stA(&)l-"mAt
Function: noun
Etymology: obsolete English stale stalemate + English 1mate
Date: 1765
1 : a drawing position in chess in which only the king can move and
although not in check can move only into check
2 : a drawn contest : DEADLOCK; also : the state of being stalemated


Merrian-Webster defines 'deadlock' as also meaning a tie score.
 
Main Entry: dead·lock 
Pronunciation: 'ded-"läk
Function: noun
Date: 1779
1 : a state of inaction or neutralization resulting from the
opposition of equally powerful uncompromising persons or factions :
STANDSTILL
2 : a tie score
- deadlock verb 
*****

The Jargon Dictionary
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/d.html

"deadlock n. 1. [techspeak] A situation wherein two or more processes
are unable to proceed because each is waiting for one of the others to
do something. A common example is a program communicating to a server,
which may find itself waiting for output from the server before
sending anything more to it, while the server is similarly waiting for
more input from the controlling program before outputting anything.
(It is reported that this particular flavor of deadlock is sometimes
called a `starvation deadlock', though the term `starvation' is more
properly used for situations where a program can never run simply
because it never gets high enough priority. Another common flavor is
`constipation', in which each process is trying to send stuff to the
other but all buffers are full because nobody is reading anything.)
See deadly embrace. 2. Also used of deadlock-like interactions between
humans, as when two people meet in a narrow corridor, and each tries
to be polite by moving aside to let the other pass, but they end up
swaying from side to side without making any progress because they
always move the same way at the same time."
*****


Merrian-Webster defines Catch-22 as being a means of entrapment.

"Pronunciation: -"twen-tE-'tü
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural catch-22's or catch-22s
Usage: often capitalized
Etymology: from Catch-22, paradoxical rule in the novel Catch-22
(1961) by Joseph Heller
Date: 1971
1 : a problematic situation for which the only solution is denied by a
circumstance inherent in the problem or by a rule <the show-business
catch-22--no work unless you have an agent, no agent unless you've
worked -- Mary Murphy>; also : the circumstance or rule that denies a
solution
2 a : an illogical, unreasonable, or senseless situation b : a measure
or policy whose effect is the opposite of what was intended c : a
situation presenting two equally undesirable alternatives
3 : a hidden difficulty or means of entrapment : CATCH" 

Best regards,

tlspiegel

Thanks to one and all...

How about "stalemate," "deadlock," or "standoff"? 

Or, if your Trekkie friends are using the Trek allusion "Kobayashi
Maru," you might want to choose a classier literary reference by
calling an unwinnable situation a "Catch-22."

My favorite: "impasse." Makes me think of Gandalf standing against the
Balrog.

I went with "Gordian knot":  
http://www.gordiansolutions.com/TheKnot.htm

and the non-PC "Mexican standoff":
http://phrases.shu.ac.uk/bulletin_board/5/messages/1219.html

In the Chinese strategy game GO, a stalemate is referred to as a "Seki"

Hope this helps,

embsupafly

Catch 22.

To me, "stalemate" and its synonyms imply both that you can't win
*and* that you can't lose.  And "predicaments" can sometimes result in
victories.  "No-win situation" works, I think, but it's kind of a
cop-out, since it's not a single word.  Maybe there is a German word
that fills the bill.  Can't you say most anything in German by
stringing nouns together? :)

I too like Catch-22, but even that normally applies only to a special
kind of no-win situation -- one that arises because of logically
inconsistent rules or conditions.

It seems to me that many of these words describe a situation that
there is neither a winner nor loser (i.e. stalemate, standoff,
deadlock, impasse).

I think you're trying to get a word that describes an inevitable
defeat or loss where there is no possibility or hope of a victory.

Pardon the vulgarity, but I think most people refer to this situation
with the words "screwed" or "fuc*ed."

Hi, mrtrivia,

"Stalemate" doesn't do it, because it doesn't mean a loss. It means a
non-win, with no one winning. Once I was playing a chess tourney, and
found myself close to loosing a game, which would have put me out of
the single-elimination event. I could find no way of winning, but I
could see a way of stalemating my opponent. I played toward that goal,
and my opponent didn't see it coming. I got the stalemate, a rematch,
and ended up doing well in the tourney.

While I like the various "Star Trek" shows and movies, I'm not an
expert. But I seem to remember that Captain James Kirk was mentioned
as being the only person to have come up with a way to defeat the
supposedly unwinnable Kobayashi Maru scenario. As I understand it, the
Kobayashi Maru was devised by the Star Fleet academy to teach
perspective officers that some situations are unwinnable, and to teach
them to be ever-vigilant for situations that would put their crew and
ship in grave peril. Kirk figured a way to beat it, so that kills
"Kobayashi Maru" as a phrase that means what you want. (If I'm wrong
about Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru scenario, someone please correct me.
<s>)

I was going to make a comment about the Kobayashi Maru, but didn't
want to reveal myself a closet Star Trek fan (aka Trekkie), but since
this board is anomymous, I guess its okay.

Kobayashi Maru is the Starfleet Academy's tactical test given to
command cadets.  In a no-win scenario, it is a test of character
revealed in the choices each man or woman makes -- and does not make.

You are correct, dancethecon. Admiral Kirk does beat the test. 
However, he does so by changing the rules under which the test is
administered.  Basically, his solution to win the no-win scenario was
to reprogram the simulation. He says, "it had the virtue of never
being tried."  Some might argue that he cheated in order to emerge
victorious.

In real life, you can't really 'change' the no-win situation, so I
guess the definition of Kobayashi Maru describing an unwinnable
situation is still valid.

SNAFU

?  winless situation?
?  winless-to-be situation?

"
winless

adj : having no wins; "the team had a very disappointing winless 

season"


Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

zugzwangy situation

zugzwang-like

"
zug·zwang    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (tsktsväng)
n. 
A situation in a chess game in which a player is forced to make an 

undesirable or disadvantageous move.

zug·zwang    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (tsktsväng)
n. 
A situation in a chess game in which a player is forced to make an 

undesirable or disadvantageous move.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[German Zugzwang : Zug, pull, move (from Middle High German zuc, 

pull, from Old High German, from ziohan, to pull. See deuk- in 

Indo-European Roots) + Zwang, compulsion (from Middle High 

German twanc, from Old High German).] 

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English 

Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
[Buy it]

What about:  bootless, inefficacious, or futile?

"Deadlock" sounds good. How about "deathtrap", "crunch" or "goner"?

In economics there is a term called "sunken cost." It refers to cost
that can never be regained.

Distinguished mrtrivia,

From game theory which you mentioned you have the expression zero-sum
game, which means a game in which players make payments only to each
other. One player's loss is the other player's gain, so the total
amount of "money" available remains constant. Chess is an example of a
zero sum game, where one person must lose (both players cannot win).
From chess also, you can be checkmated--the Shah can no longer escape.
In this position of certain loss, then the situation is by definition
"unwinnable", but I hope this doesn't happen to any of us.

subwin

subdraw

subtie

sub-
tie "b : equality in a contest; also : a contest that ends in a draw" by M-W

Hello again, MrTrivia

I think we've all suffered your frustration of knowing a word that
will perfectly fit your context but not being able to recall it
without some assistance.  If we haven't hit upon the word you're
looking for, I'm sure anyone who's interested can keep trying.   None
of these offerings are necessarily wrong, but they may not fit your
mind's context, which is totally valid.

Since you mentioned game theory, I wonder if the phrase "phonologist's
dilemma" might work.  http://tinyurl.com/i55w (redirect from
thetinyone).  While your reader could gestalt the meaning of this
phrase knowing zippo about game theory, you may be wandering into
'Kobiashi Moru' territory on an understanding level.  Still, there is
something to be said for talking "up" to your audience.

Is the word you're searching for something the average eighth-grader
would recognize or a term with some Mensa chops?  And would you have
an a-ha moment should we hit on it?  I assure you none of us want to
'sell' you on our choices as we know neither your audience nor your
subject matter.

"Phonologist's dilemma" pertains to debate theory rather than a
political 'quagmire' situation (Vietnam, Somalia, Afghanistan, etc.),
but I suppose you could extrapolate it out to fit if you're trying to
convey a 'war' of words.

And there's never really a no-win situation -- rather a situation
waiting on an Alexander or a Capt. Kirk, eh?

Would you like us to keep pitching?

Google search on:
no-win + game theory

nonwinningly playing here, right?
 
by M-W:
winning
Function: adjective
1 a : of or relating to winning : that wins <the winning ticket>
 b : successful especially in competition <a winning team>

nonwinning is at
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=nonwinning

can "nonwinning"  be a winning here?

Main Entry: win·ning 
Pronunciation: 'wi-ni[ng]
Function: noun
Date: 14th century
1 : the act of one that wins : VICTORY

just for the record --since unfortunately GA is too slow to act on the
advice to date/time the closing and rating of answers:
the closing comment and 5-star rating came in after the answer, its
clarification and 21 comments.
;)