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Q: Jewish Scholasti/Religious wisdom ( Answered,   3 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Jewish Scholasti/Religious wisdom
Category: Reference, Education and News
Asked by: dushty-ga
List Price: $5.00
Posted: 24 Jul 2003 23:35 PDT
Expires: 23 Aug 2003 23:35 PDT
Question ID: 234891
Expert in Jewish Scholastic/Religious wisdom, please: "Rava" a
Babylonian sage was reputed to have said something to the effect:
ignore the urge to practice an-ey-for-an-eye...etc. Is there anything
factual known about this person and has he more pearls of wisdom?
Answer  
Subject: Re: Jewish Scholasti/Religious wisdom
Answered By: digsalot-ga on 25 Jul 2003 01:42 PDT
 
Hello there

Rava is one of the great Rabbis of the Talmud.  This quote from
Aish.com - Wisdom for Living - Which begins with the words "The oldest
and most stable of Jewish communities was saved from the Christians by
Muslims sweeping through the Middle East," gives the clear importance
of Rava and his counterpart Abbaye.

The quote is: "Their stamp of analysis and discussion appears in
countless numbers of debates and discussions that form the Talmud. In
fact, the surname of the Talmud is "the discussions of Abbaye and
Rava."
http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishhistory/Crash_Course_in_Jewish_History_Part_43_-_The_Jews_of_Babylon.asp

These rabbis are known in Jewish scholarship as Amoraim, "explainers"
or "interpreters." The Amoraim lived from about 200 CE to about 500
CE.

Rava was one of the more frequently mentioned Rabbis in the Talmud and
many of his rulings are accepted today as Jewish law. Rava lived in
Babylon during the period of time following the codification of the
Mishna approximately 100 CE.

There are several legends surrounding his life, one of which I will
quote here:

"Rava came to bring a gift to Ben Sheshek, apparently a minister in
the king's service. Ben Sheshek was, unlike the rest of his
contemporaries, not an idolater; he was a person who did not give
credence to the popular idols of that time.

"Rava's visit coincided with an idolatrous holiday. Unlike the rest of
his gentile contemporaries, Ben Sheshek was not celebrating the
idolatrous holiday with the rest of his contemporaries in the local
house of idolatry.

"The Talmud relates that Rava came upon Ben Sheshek as he was enjoying
the pleasures of a special rosewater bath, (an expensive and very
pleasureful bath) and attended by naked prostitutes who were giving
Ben Sheshek a most extremely pleasureful experience.

"Ben Sheshek asked Rava, "tell me, do you have such pleasures in the
world to come?"

"Rava answered him, "our pleasures in the next world are greater than
this."

"Better than this? Can it really be?" 

"You have the fear of the king upon you," Rava answered him. "We will
not have the fear of the king."

Ben Sheshek answered him, "Me? what fear of the king do I have?" 

As the two were conversing, a messenger of the king came and told Ben
Sheshek that the king requested his immediate presence. Quickly Ben
Sheshek left his pleasures and prepared himself to leave with the
messenger.

As Ben Sheshek turned to leave he said to Rava, "May the eyes of those
who wish to harm you be put out." Rava answered him with a hearty
"Amen."

In a short time word came back to Rava, that Ben Sheshek had his eyes
put out by the king."

You will find that story along with an explanation of it here:
http://www.jewishmag.com/55mag/bensheshek/bensheshek.htm - The website
is "The Jewish Magazine" issue 69, July 2003.

Rava opened a school at Mahoza on the Tigris River.  "He was a poor
man who would cultivate his vegetable plot by night, in order to study
by day...The discussions between Abbaye & Rava are some of the
sharpest in the Talmud & made a vital contribution to it." - quote
from "ISRAEL UNDER NEW MANAGEMENT (475 onwards) & THE MAKING OF THE
BABYLONIAN TALMUD (200 CE TO 499 CE)" (the use of all caps is theirs)
- http://www.chiswick.demon.co.uk/TALMUD4.htm

A Rava quote which seems to fit today's times as well as the times
when it was writen is:  "If all the seas were ink, and all the fields
were overgrown with quills and all the heavens were folios and all the
people scribes- they would still be insufficient to descibe the
complexities of administering a government. (Shabbat 11a)" -
http://www.bayit02.freeserve.co.uk/html/sayings.html

Rava stated: "First, the Evil Inclination is called a passerby, then
he is called a guest, and ultimately he is called Master" (Succah
52b). -  Satan, in the persona of the Evil Inclination, starts small,
promoting the commission of small sins, then gathers strength until
finally the individual is completely overwhelmed. - From "Satan the
Accuser: Trickster in Talmudic and Midrashic Literature"/Brooklyn
College of the City University of New York
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/economic/friedman/SatanHumor.htm

There are many "pearls of wisdom" by Rava.  However, they are embedded
in the Talmud rather than being published as a 'stand alone.'  The
reason being that out of context they are meaningless to most scholars
without the surrounding support structure.

Citations of Rava with book and chapter:
Series of statements regarding Leaven and its destruction before
Pesach: Pesachim 10b
Series of statements regarding Transport of Items on Shabbat: Shabbat
80a
Series of statements regarding the disposal of certain items which
serve holy or Mitzvah purposes: Megillah 26b
Series of statements regarding the analysis of various verses: Eruvin
21b
Series of statements regarding finding lost objects: Bava Metzia 26b
Series of statements on the mourning practices of the women of
Shachnetziv: Moed Katan 28b
Series of statements regarding the laws of Edim Zomimin: Makkot 5a
Series of statements on the Binding of the 4 Species on Succot: Succah
36b
Series of Statements [Derashot]: Nedarim 39b
Series of Statements beginning, "I used to think...": Megillah 26b
Set of Rava's questions regarding sanctification of animals: Temurah
11b
Rava prefacing an answer with, "There are two answers": Shabbat 122b,
153b; Kiddushin 5b; Temurah 20b, 22a
Rava citing two laws from "the elders of Pumbedita": Eruvin 79b

This is a massive website but the whole Talmud is here along with a
search engine you can use to find chapter and verse.
http://www.aishdas.org/webshas/index.shtml - Index to the Talmud

Search - Google

Terms - rava babylon, rava sage, sayings of rava, rava gems of wisdom,
rava pearls of wisdom

If I may clarify anything, please ask.

Cheers
digsalot
Comments  
Subject: Re: Jewish Scholasti/Religious wisdom
From: googel-ga on 25 Jul 2003 07:41 PDT
 
is question's remark 
"
"Rava" a 
Babylonian sage was reputed to have said something to the effect: 
ignore the urge to practice an-ey-for-an-eye...etc. 
" 
supported in the answer?
Subject: Re: Jewish Scholasti/Religious wisdom
From: digsalot-ga on 25 Jul 2003 14:38 PDT
 
Hi google-ga

Since the "remark" in the question seems to be not much more than an
identifying factor leading up to the actual question which is "Is
there anything factual known about this person and has he more pearls
of wisdom?" - I chose not to advocate or promote the anti-Semetic and
anti-Talmudic diatribes from which such "reputed" sayings "to the
effect" often originate.

These texts can be quite nasty, and to put it bluntly, twisted into
some amazing interpretations.  The question asks about what is known
and what the rabbi's sayings were.  There is no place for speculative
quotes when the question deals with what is really known about an
individual.

In actuality, the "eye for eye" controversy in the Talmud comes from
Baba Kama 83b -84a and discusses how, in great detail, It was never to
be taken literally but was always understood as monetary compensation.

As for the literal meaning of an eye for an eye which is from the
Biblical source, the Talmudic quote about that is "Let not this enter
your mind."

The answer does not give support to the "remark" or sayings to the
"effect" of any such quote being attributed directly to Rava.

digs
Subject: Re: Jewish Scholasti/Religious wisdom
From: googel-ga on 25 Jul 2003 16:01 PDT
 
"
Subject: in the attn. of digsalot-ga 
Category: Miscellaneous 
Asked by: googel-ga 
List Price: $2.50  Posted: 25 Jul 2003 15:04 PDT 
Expires: 24 Aug 2003 15:04 PDT 
Question ID: 235159 
 
Hello digsalot-ga, 
 
Thank you for answering my comment --re. the remark of and  
non-belonging to the question. 
...

"

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