Hi,
  Ivar Bryce was married to Josephine Hartford Bryce.
  Ivar Bryce's full name was Ivar Felix C. Bryce, and he also went by
John Felix C. Bryce (J.F.C.B.).
  I want to know what name his initial C. stood for.

---

Request for Question Clarification by leli-ga on 01 Aug 2003 02:02 PDT

Hi Georgez

I've had no luck trying to find Ivar Bryce's third name, but I have
found enough information about his birth for you to be able to order
his birth certificate, online, at a cost of £7.

To be completely accurate, I should say I've found details for a John
Felix C Bryce. After checking Bryce's autobiography, I know it's the
right year of birth.

The place of birth is plausible and though I can't say with 100 per
cent certainty that it's him, it seems likely.

If you feel this information would be a useful answer, I would be
happy to write it all up for you. Though I can't absolutely guarantee
that the name would be spelt out in full on the certificate, I would
be surprised if it were not. My reasons for optimism are:
 ~ The American custom of occasionally giving an initial instead of a
middle name is not known in the UK.
 ~ The English upper classes often give more than one middle name and
Ivar's mother, who had aristocratic connections, is described in her
son's book as a "snob" who wanted Ivar to be aware of his background.
 ~ I checked a couple of other three-forenames people from grand
backgrounds. Although their third names are known, in the database
where I found "John Felix C", the name is abbreviated to an initial.
Presumably that's just the format used by that particular database.
 
Just let me know if this would be any help. I do realise it's not what
you were hoping for, but there doesn't seem to be a better answer
available.

Leli

---

Clarification of Question by georgez-ga on 01 Aug 2003 07:54 PDT

Hi  leli-ga,
   Ah ... so you read Ivar's 'You Only Live Once'.  Great.  He birth
year was 1906. Concerning his birth certificate, I would be very
intersted in ordering his birth certificate, online, at a cost of £7. 
Once given this information, I feel that you have answered my question
by pointing me in the right direction.
  Thank you.

---

Request for Question Clarification by leli-ga on 01 Aug 2003 09:04 PDT

Thanks for your message, Georgez. 
Glad to think my suggestion might help.

But - there's a bureaucratic hitch - I hadn't noticed that you can
only order online from within the UK.

If you are elsewhere, you have to order by post, phone or fax.  Then
the service costs £8.50. I have checked that this includes airmail
postage.

Let me know if this still seems like a good idea.

Leli

PS I started reading "You Only Live Once" yesterday at the library,
looking for his names as well as birth date. Now my researcher's nose
is twitching, wanting to know why he doesn't mention the JFC names,
trying to find out more . .

---

Clarification of Question by georgez-ga on 01 Aug 2003 10:46 PDT

Hi Leli,
   I live in the United States.  So I would need to either phone or
write a letter to them in order to have a copy made so I'll will need
their address and phone number.  I still think its a good idea.

Thanks again.

Here at last, Georgez, an explanation of how to get hold of Ivar
Bryce's birth certificate. Apologies for the extra delay when I
realised the online system wasn't possible from outside the UK.


All my searches were fruitless until I tried the FreeBMD site here:
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

Putting "Bryce" and "john Felix" in the right boxes leads to:

"Births Sep 1906
BRYCE  John Felix C   St Geo.H.Sq  1a  427"

"Sep 1906" - means the birth was registered in July, August or
September 1906.

"St. Geo H. Sq" is St. George's (Church) Hanover Square, the district
of London where Bryce's birth was registered. St. George's itself
is/was a "fashionable" church for society weddings, christenings and
so on. The registration district also covers other parishes in smart
areas like Belgravia, Mayfair or Westminster where the Bryce family or
relatives of theirs might have had a "town house".
://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22st+george%27s+hanover%22+fashionable&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

"1a" is the volume of records and "427" the page. Together they are
known as the GRO (General Register Office) reference. You need this
GRO reference to order the certificate.


You can click on "here" a little below the name where it says: "Click
here to learn what to do now."

Or - go to this page to read about the process of ordering
certificates:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/nsbase/registration/certificates.asp

Or - go directly to the application form here:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/registration/certe_w/downloads/birth.pdf

If you don't already have Adobe Acrobat Reader, necessary for reading
the form, you can download it free here:
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html 



Simplest of all, you could just call the General Register Office:

General Register Office
PO Box 2, Southport, Merseyside,
PR8 2JD, UK.
Telephone: +44 (0) 870 243 7788
Fax: +44 (0) 1704 550013

When I callled to check the system and ensure the fee included airmail
postage (surface mail is so slow), I found the person I spoke to very
helpful. She confirmed that details like parents' names are
unnecessary as long as you have the GRO reference, in this case: "1a
427".

More information about "How to apply for certificates online, by post,
by fax or by telephone" including office hours, 5 hours ahead of East
Coast USA.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/nsbase/registration/CertE_W/other_certificate_obtain.asp


That should be all you need but please get straight back to me if you
have a problem and I'll do my best to sort it out.



Thanks to Markj for his suggestion (below). It reminds me that I found
Ivar was called "John F C Bryce" in US obituaries for Josephine which
I came across when answering a previous question about him.  Yet he
seems to have stuck to Ivar in most situations. His book doesn't even
mention Fleming's  apparent compliment of using Felix for Felix Leiter
and dedicating "Diamonds Are Forever" to JFCB. Very mysterious.



Extra bits & pieces I found while searching
-------------------------------------------

There are some entries on a genealogy site for previous generations of
the Bryce family.
This page confirms that Ivar's father was called Charles, as it says
in "You Only Live Once":
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=royals&id=I35986

The same Peruvian genealogist (also called Bryce) gives Ivar's
mother's name as Evelyn Eves:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=royals&id=I35991
(You may remember that the book says her father was a Major-General
Ives.)

Here we discover Ivar had a great-uncle Felicio (Felix):
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=royals&id=I35997

If those links fail, start on the search page here:
http://rootsweb.com/


This page shows not only Ivar's maternal grandfather, Major-General
Cecil Robert St. John Ives of Moyns Park, but also Violet Maud Cecil
Ives, who must be Ivar's aunt. Doesn't the book say the two sisters
fell out?
http://www.hostultra.com/~thepeerage/p807.htm

And you can find a record of Mrs. Charles Bryce's detective stories in
the British Library:
http://blpc.bl.uk/



So - with John and Felix both family names, I'm guessing Charles or
Cecil for the C. But it may yet be something quite unexpected.

I hope you have the answer soon!


Best Wishes - Leli



Searches:
"ivar * * bryce"
"i * * bryce"
"john * * bryce"
"j * * bryce"
"felix * bryce" 
etc.

When none of those searches came to anything, I went to the genealogy
sites and "You Only Live Once".

Thanks for the help.  It was a pleasure.

georgez --

You may already be aware of this, but certain papers of Ernest Cuneo
are apparently archived at the Frankin Delano Roosevelt Library at
Hyde Park, New York.  The list of those papers includes a substantial
amount of material labeled "John F.C. Bryce."  It is possible that an
included document might contain the name that goes with the "C."

Here is a link to the list (it's in alphabetical order):
http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu:8000/findbrow.cgi?collection=Cuneo,+Ernest

And here's a link for contacting the research staff at the FDR
library:
http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu:/research.html

I hope this helps.

markj-ga

Thank you Markj.

Many thanks, Georgez. I enjoyed ferreting around in search of answers
to the Bryce name mystery.
Hope you have that certificate soon!