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Subject:
Evoultionary science/philosophy
Category: Science Asked by: aquinas-ga List Price: $5.00 |
Posted:
04 Aug 2003 19:41 PDT
Expires: 03 Sep 2003 19:41 PDT Question ID: 240103 |
Can the Universe create itself? |
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There is no answer at this time. |
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Subject:
Re: Evoultionary science/philosophy
From: easterangel-ga on 04 Aug 2003 20:39 PDT |
According to the Bible in Hebrews 11:3 (NIV) "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at Gods command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." The phrase "what is seen was not made out of what was visible" means that the visible universe cannnot create itself and the ONE (GOD) who created it is not visible. The universe cannot account for itself. Thanks! |
Subject:
Re: Evoultionary science/philosophy
From: pinkfreud-ga on 04 Aug 2003 21:20 PDT |
I wholeheartedly agree with my friend and colleague easterangel. Some interesting reading on the subject of the universe's beginnings may be found here: http://www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html |
Subject:
Re: Evoultionary science/philosophy
From: digsalot-ga on 04 Aug 2003 22:19 PDT |
First-cause has been a question that has filled the time of religionists, philosophers and cosmologists alike. Now that it is objectively apparent that the universe as we know it began in the "Big Bang," a term which is misleading but useful, the question of what happened before the Big Bang is relevant. 'Inflation theory' seems the probable answer. Please notice I use the term "theory" in the scientific sense as is an explanation or model based on observation, experimentation, and reasoning, especially one that has been tested and confirmed as a general principle helping to explain and predict natural phenomena. I do not use the word 'theory' as is used by some to mean unproven or untestable conjecture. But as has been shown, (Borde and Vilenkin 1994) the inflationary state preceding the Big Bang must have had a beginning also. So the real question is how to make something out of nothing; meaning we really need to ask is whether there is anything in the laws of physics that would prevent the Universe from creating itself. Because spacetimes can be curved and multiply connected, general relativity allows for closed timelike curves (CTCs). Thus, tracing backwards in time through the original inflationary state we eventually encounter a region of CTCs giving no first-cause. A "steady-state" eternally inflating universe is quite possible after all, with no beginning as well as no end. Such a Universe can be classically stable and self-consistent, giving a natural explanation of the arrow of time. For example: an inflationary universe gives rise to baby universes, one of which turns out to be itself. Interestingly, the laws of physics allow the Universe to be its own mother. The most reasonable answer to the question of what happened before the Big Bang is "what happened before inflation" and that appears to be eternal inflation, which implies that in most of the meta-universe, exponentially far beyond our horizon, inflation never stopped. There was no creation, only an eternal Universe with no beginning, self creating and unending. Cheers digs |
Subject:
Re: Evolutionary science/philosophy
From: genesisx-ga on 06 Aug 2003 04:33 PDT |
1. The observable evidence is that that which we like to point at and call the universe exists and at least was once super tiny. But the physicist say they can't (using Aristotles empiricism - evidence based knowledge) know earlier than 10^-35 seconds etc. But you already know this. 2. The question is not of the nature of how the universe could create itself, which is a bit more complicated, though most with a kindy education could follow it after a bit of coaching (but I haven't published this yet, so I'll stay silent on the matter for the present). 3. But to the answer to your question - and as much as you won't like the answer much because it chops God bad - but the answer is simple - yes it can create itself. Your question in full is better stated 'Can the universe create itself from nothing (and nothing else). This would need a big discussion about what is meant by nothing and a thousand semantic issues that are just so ho hum, to be left for those who want to talk about the problem, not the answer. In effect the centre of the question is 'Can nothing and only nothing exist, and is it stable.' No, it is not stable. If there is a 'nothing (and nothing else)' which is implied by your question, then it would have to be infinite. But an infinity of nothing is everywhere the same (isotropic in a mathematical sense)so everywhere has the same identity - you could not locate your imagined self in this structure, for there is no dimensions in 'nothing (and nothing else)' by definition. In fact to talk about an infinity of nothing (and nothing else) is non-sensical - there is no infinity of anything for it to exist in. It follows without redemption that nothing cannot be infinite. Therefore it is finite. If it is finite, it has a boundary (it matter little what the nature of the boundary is, for that is outside the scope of the question). But if it is bounded, then there is at least nothing and the boundary (meaning nothing and something other than nothing). And that is at least the beginning of a universe. Too easy. So yes, some structure is unavoidable and a universe can only create itself, it can't not. Spooky huh, but too bad for God. |
Subject:
Re: Evoultionary science/philosophy
From: knowledge_seeker-ga on 06 Aug 2003 05:48 PDT |
We are. Therefore, it did. -K~ |
Subject:
Re: Evoultionary science/philosophy
From: ftcmj-ga on 12 Aug 2003 01:55 PDT |
Perhaps I've misunderstood the meaning of the word "evolutionary" in the title. But in case I haven't: This question has nothing to do with "evolution", at least not in the common scientific sense of Darwinian evolution. Darwinian evolution does not address the question of the existence of the Universe. It is not even a theory of the origin of life. Darwinian evolution proposes a theory and supporting evidence for a mechanism of the origin of species--that new species of living organisms evolve from previous forms by physical processes of natural selection. Back to the question at hand: The asker's user id is "aquinas", and indeed Thomas Aquinas proposed the argument of "first cause" as one argument for the existence of God. Aquinas said that everything in the Universe is contingent--the existence of everything in the Universe depends on the existence of some prior thing or things. Aquinas claimed, though, that this contingency cannot go infinitely back in time. There must be some "prime mover", who Aquinas says is (no big surprise) God. I've never understood why people consider this argument convincing. First, there's no evidence that this prime mover (or primal cause) is necessary. Gautama Buddha said (essentially) that "regression of cause" in the Universe is infinite. So, there you have it. Two philosophers disagreeing. Even if there must be a prime mover, who says that prime mover must be God? (Unless your definition of God is "the prime mover", but that argument doesn't connect with any of the other supposed attributes of God.) Finally, why is it that a Universe can't create itself, but a God can? If your definition of God is that-which-can-create-itself, then why not just call the Universe "God" and have done with it? The Universe may have been created by God, or by itself, or some other way. But putting in something called "God" doesn't solve the problem, because that's just replacing one self-creating thing (the Universe) with another (God). It's a word game. Can the Universe create itself? Maybe so, maybe not. But injecting God into the equation simply doesn't answer the question, proof texts or otherwise. --Mark Johnson |
Subject:
Re: Evoultionary science/philosophy
From: sublime1-ga on 24 Aug 2003 09:19 PDT |
aquinas... You might enjoy reading: 'Creating Cosmos' Author:Barbara Dewey Paperback Publisher: Bartholomew Books; Revised edition (May 1994) ISBN: 0933123000 'The Theory of Laminated SpaceTime' Author:Barbara Dewey Manufacturer: Bartholomew Books Release Date: July, 1993 Media: Hardcover ISBN: 0933123027 'Consciousness and Quantum Behavior: The Theory of Laminated Spacetime Re-Examined' Author:Barbara Dewey Paperback: 130 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.50 x 8.50 x 5.75 Publisher: Bartholomew Books; (July 1993) ISBN: 0933123043 sublime1-ga |
Subject:
Re: Evoultionary science/philosophy
From: elhi-ga on 29 Mar 2004 05:42 PST |
Read the book Two big bangs created the Universe (Formed in Eternal Space), this book tries to answer your question. Thanks! |
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