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Q: Historical Basis for Odyssey Characters ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   2 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Historical Basis for Odyssey Characters
Category: Arts and Entertainment > Books and Literature
Asked by: prometheus_unbound-ga
List Price: $5.00
Posted: 06 Aug 2003 18:55 PDT
Expires: 05 Sep 2003 18:55 PDT
Question ID: 240935
What, if any, historical basis is there for the stories in Homer's
Odyssey?  Was there a Trojan war?  A King Odysseus?  An Agamemnon?

I am not looking here for the easy answer that it is all mythology and
that none of it is true.  I am interested to know if there is any
known relationships between the story characters and historical
figures, whether or not they went by the same names.
Answer  
Subject: Re: Historical Basis for Odyssey Characters
Answered By: juggler-ga on 06 Aug 2003 22:08 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
------------------------------------------
What, if any, historical basis is there for the stories in Homer's
Odyssey?  Was there a Trojan war? 
------------------------------------------

There is some historical basis for a Trojan War.

See:

"Reasons to Believe Homer"
From Page, D. L. "Homer and the Trojan War." 
Some excerpts:

"1. We all agree that the basic narrative has been greatly amplified
with fictions; but the fact that the basic narrative may have begun
very near the time of the events themselves, and must have begun
within a few generations after them, is evidence (I don’t say proof)
that the basic narrative is trustworthy...
2. Homer says that Troy was sacked... Now Hissarlik2 has been fully
excavated, and nobody doubts that Troy VIIa was destroyed within the
Mycenaean period.
3. Homer says that the centre of Achaean3 power was at Mycenae, rich
in gold. This too was surely a fable; few believed it. After nearly a
hundred years of excavation at Mycenae and other palaces on the
mainland, there is (I suppose) not a sceptic left.
4. Homer says that Troy was besieged by Achaeans. Archaeology has
brought the Mycenaeans into very close contact with Troy..."
source: Houghton Miflin College
http://college.hmco.com/history/west/mosaic/chapter2/source90.html

"The Historical Setting of the Odyssey
Is there anything in the Iliad or Odyssey which corresponds to what we
today would consider to be historical fact? We know that the Mycenaean
peoples, one of the ancestors of the historical Greeks, migrated into
Greece about 1900 B.C. They are called Mycenaeans because their
principal center was Mycenae, the home of the mythical King Agamemnon
whom you will meet in the Odyssey. Their civilization reached its
height between the 15th and the12th centuries B.C., and rapidly
declined around 1100 B.C. because of the violent entry into Greece of
another Greek ancestor, the Dorians.
In the 12th or 13th century B.C. the Mycenaeans fought a war, perhaps
because of commercial rivalry, against the city Troy. (The traditional
date is 1193-1184 B.C.). It is this war that is basic to the Iliad,
which is the story of the anger of one of the legendary heroes of that
war, Akhilleus (or Achilles), and of the consequences of that anger.
Nowhere do the Mycenaeans call themselves Greeks, but always Akhaians,
Argives or Danaans. We know, however, from archaeology, that the name
Akhilleus is a Mycenaean name, and we are almost certain that other
ancient peoples called the Mycenaeans Akhaians. We are not sure just
who their opponents, the Trojans, were, but in Homer's poems they seem
to have the same heroic code of conduct and fighting and honor as the
Greeks."
source: The Odyssey / The Odyssey and Antecedent Tales
http://www.aug.edu/langlitcom/humanitiesHBK/handbook_htm/odyssey_intro.htm

Also see:
Lesson 27: Troy VII and the Historicity of the Trojan 
http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/27.html

"Trojan War: A Raid, not a Siege"
http://college.hmco.com/history/west/mosaic/chapter2/source77.html

"Troy"
http://www.varchive.org/schorr/troy.htm

 EXCAVATING TROY
 Behind the Myth of Troy
"  'We are no longer interested in clarifying whether the Trojan War
and the ensuing destruction of Troy VI around 1250 BC - really took
place", Korfmann points out. "I even think that because of Troy's
strategic significance, there must have been many Trojan Wars which
could have served as a basis for Homer's epics.' "
http://www.iit.edu/~agunsal/truva/exc.html


"A Different Horse: Alternate Interpretations of the Trojan War"
  by John D. Beatty 
http://www.ehistory.com/world/articles/ArticleView.cfm?AID=28

Here's an interesting newsgroup post on this subject:
"Subject: Re: Truth Behind the Iliad "
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&client=googlet&selm=19980106010001.UAA22464%40ladder01.news.aol.com


For further reading see the following books:

"In Search of the Trojan War"
by Michael Wood
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520215990/

THE WORLD OF ODYSSEUS by M. I. FINLEY
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1590170172/

See an excerpt from the introduction to this book:
http://www.nybooks.com/shop/product-file/80/thew880/introduction.pdf

---------------------
 A King Odysseus?  
---------------------

"..there was a kingdom of Ithica which allows for a king Odysseus.
Even if the King did not go to the war there was still a chance that
he might have existed."
http://www.electronicreferences.com/view.php/Philosophy/Odysseus.htm

"Although fictional Odysseus probably entails legends about the
pirates who operated in the Aegean, Adriatic and nearby seas around
700 BC (Lintott, 1982: 61)"
http://www.coe.int/T/E/Cultural_Co-operation/Culture/Other_projects/Intercultural_Dialogue_and_Conflict_prevention/Documents/2001/ekatunaric.asp

"All of the evidence that has been accumulated through the
investigation of archeologists, the study of the later Greek writers,
and comparative historical and anthropological studies indicated that
indeed the City of Troy did exist and that a war did take place as
described in the Iliad and the Odyssey. There probably was a real king
of Ithaca named Odysseus, but many of the adventures in the Odyssey
are clearly products of the fantasy of sailors and travelers of the
time. "
http://coe.west.asu.edu/students/madams/the_introduction_to_the_od.htm

"Did Odysseus exist in real life? No evidence exists to prove that he
did (or did not) exist, but most of the tales told by Homer are
clearly fiction.."
http://www.who2.com/odysseus.html

"According to E. Meyer (Hermes, xxx. p. 267), Odysseus is an old
Arcadian nature god identical with Poseidon, who dies at the approach
of winter (retires to the western sea or is carried away to the
underworld) to revive in spring (but see E. Rohde, Rhein. Mus. I. p.
631). A more suitable identification would be Hermes. Mannhardt and
others regard Odysseus as a solar or summer divinity, who withdraws to
the underworld during the winter, and returns in spring to free his
wife from the suitors (the powers of winter). A. Gercke (Neue
Jahrbücher für das klassische Alterlum, xv. p. 331) takes him to be an
agricultural divinity akin to the sun god, whose wife is the
moon-goddess Penelope, from whom he is separated and reunited to her
on the day of the new moon. His cult early disappeared; in Arcadia his
place was taken by Poseidon. ,But although the personality of Odysseus
may have had its origin in some primitive religious myth, chief
interest attaches to him as the typical representative of the old
sailor-race whose adventurous voyages educated and moulded the
Hellenic race. The period when the character of Odysseus took shape
among the Ionian bards"
http://14.1911encyclopedia.org/O/OE/OECOLAMPADIUS_JOHN.htm




---------------------
An Agamemnon?
---------------------

From the Encyclpaedia Britannica:

"Agamemnon may have been a historical character, the overlord of the
Mycenaean or Achaean states of the Greek mainland."
From  Encyclopaedia Britannica, hosted by Ohlone College
http://online.ohlone.cc.ca.us/art/kmencher/public_html/pic_old/primary_texts/aeschylus_agamemnon.htm
Same excerpt on:
http://kat.gr/Kat/History/Greek/Gn/Agamemnon.htm

"The paramount importance of Agamemnon in Homer's Iliad has led most
scholars to assume that the king of Mycenae dominated the Argolid, and
this view has received support from the wealth of the Shaft Graves and
the large number of tholoi (including the magnificent Treasury of
Atreus...) at that site. Nevertheless, few scholars are now willing to
consider Homer a reliable historical source for the Mycenaean period,
and the Shaft Graves and most of the tholoi are in any case features
of the early Mycenaean era and not of the 13th century B.C."
http://projectsx.dartmouth.edu/history/bronze_age/lessons/les/21.html


---------------

search terms:
trojan war, troy, real, really, historical, Historicity
odysseus, existed, real, probably, ithaca
agamemnon, existed, real, king, Mycenae


I hope this helps.
prometheus_unbound-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars and gave an additional tip of: $5.00
Wow.  Excellent answers.  I am very pleased with the comprehensive research.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Historical Basis for Odyssey Characters
From: pinkfreud-ga on 06 Aug 2003 19:23 PDT
 
I haven't found any evidence of a real Odysseus. Agamemnon may have
been an actual person. Troy and the Trojan War are almost certainly
real.

Here's some interesting reading:

"I do believe that the poem originally commemorated an actual Mycenean
event. There may have been a real Agamemnon who led a raid into Asia
Minor against a city named Troy. It was probably this raid that
inspired the poem. But I believe that the actual events of the raid
were far different that what came down to us in Homer's Iliad. Over
time, however, the events became changed through the oral traditions
through which it was passed from generation to generation. Those
elements which no longer reflected Greek society were replaced with
those that did. Thus I think Homer replaced actual Mycenean chariot
fighting, like you said, 8th century battle tactics and placed this in
a Mycenean setting."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancmed/message/3625?source=1

"Until the 19th century it was widely believed that Troy and the
Trojan war were imaginary. Then, in 1871, a German-born American
citizen named Heinrich Schliemann began excavating an ancient city in
Turkey. To the amazement of many, this retired businessman had
discovered the lost city of Troy (also called Ilion, or Ilium in
Latin).

Nine cities have been found at the site, one on top of the other. The
seventh city was destroyed around 1250 BC and appears to be the Troy
of legend. You can still see the ruins of its towers and its walls,
which were sixteen feet thick.

Schliemann identified Troy's location through clues he found in the
Iliad, the epic attributed to the Greek poet Homer... Thanks to the
work of Heinrich Schleimann, virtually everyone today agrees that the
city whose seige Homer described was quite real. The eccentric
Schliemann is often belittled as an amateur, even a fraud, but there
is no denying the importance of his discovery. Without him we might
still regard the Trojan War as nothing more than myth."

http://www.royalty.nu/legends/Troy.html

"Although the story of Agamemnon is based on legend, it involves real
historical and geographic references. Argos, for instance, was one of
the dominant ancient cities of the Aegean Sea, located in the
northeast Peloponnese of Greece.

Until the 19th century, Troy was thought to be a purely legendary
city. However, in the 1870s, an amateur archaeologist named Heinrich
Schliemann began excavating a site in northwestern Turkey, uncovering
ruins that are now believed to be those of the historical Troy.

Schliemann later turned his attention to Mycenae, where he discovered
a gravesite believed by some to be that of a historical Agamemnon.

In ancient times, Agamemnon was the focus of cults in Laconia and at
Tarentum, Clazomenae and Chaeronea.

One of the key elements in the story is Agamemnon's sacrifice of
Iphigenia. In reality, human sacrifice was not practised in the
post-Paleolithic Greek world."

http://www.stratfordfestival.ca/season/ontheinside_atreus.cfm

You'll find a wealth of information about the discovery of Troy by
searching with the keywords "schliemann" and "troy":

://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=schliemann+troy

I'm hoping that one of the Researchers with a specialty in history and
archaeology will be able to answer your question fully.
Subject: Re: Historical Basis for Odyssey Characters
From: juggler-ga on 06 Aug 2003 23:09 PDT
 
prometheus_unbound:
Thank you for the tip.
-juggler

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