Gen 5:1-2 says that man was first made in God's likeness and then in
verse 3, after Adam and Eve sinned, it says that Seth who was born to
Adam after sin, was in the likeness of Adam.

"This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he
made him in the likeness of God.
 He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were
created, he called them "man."
  When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in
his own image; and he named him Seth."

Okay, then Rom 5:8 says,   "But God demonstrates his own love for us
in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Here is my question. If man was originally made in the image and
likeness of God and sin changed that condition so that we are
subsequently "made" in the image of sinful man, how can God now (in
Romans 5:8) love us while
we were still sinners? I mean, what was there to love? God can't love
sin...so how could He love us? And there is plenty of scripture that
indicates the utter sinfulness and depravity of man apart from God's
grace! So, to me it seems to be a contradiction that a perfectly holy
God could love a sinner that is utterly sinful to God.
The only thing I can come up with is that our will, and intellect and
emotions (these are generally viewed as the soul of man by
theologians) are in the image of man in regard to sins effect on them
but that they still somehow reflect something worth loving because of
some
kind of inherent value despite sin. But I'm not able to make that
argument from scripture...and every Biblical commentator I've found
just comments basically on how wonderful it is that God does love us
anyway. But I am looking for a way for this apparent contradiction to
make sense to me. What is it about us that God can love while we were
yet sinners???

Dear Grace,

Do not confuse sin with the sinner. He loves the person, but does not
love the sin.

Because of this, He made a way for the sinner to be forgiven/redeemed.
He sent Jesus Christ to die on the cross for the sins; so that whoever
believes in Him shall not perish but live forever.

He created a way for someone else to take the punishment for the sins.
God is a God of love, but He is also a God of justice. Because He is
so pure and holy, he Hates sin. The sin still had to be punished. The
punishment for sin was actually death.

Like a father and child, even if the child does wrong, the father
still loves the child. He punishes the child, but the child is still
loved by him; in fact, it's because he loves the child, that's WHY he
punishes the child.

Even though human beings were created in the likeness of God, they
were born with a free will. Because God loved humans so much, He gave
them this free will, instead of creating robots. Since everything is
permissible, but not everything is beneficial, human beings chose to
sin, however.

---

Request for Answer Clarification by grace1-ga on 21 Aug 2003 07:32 PDT

Yes, this is the usual answer to this, that God lives the sinner -
hates the sin. And I know that we love our sinful children. But since
God is perfectly holy, it seems to be a contradiction to His holiness
that He can love the sinner. Scripture clearly indicates that we, in
our sinful state are completely destitute of Godlike qualities. ("I
know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature."
(Rom.7:18)) If we are unholy, how can a perfectly holy God love us?

---

Clarification of Answer by aresearcher-ga on 22 Aug 2003 11:03 PDT

God created human beings to have a personal, spiritual relationship
with Him.

'Image' and 'likeness' are actually similar, yet distinct terms. They
are believed to complement each other.
       
IMAGE 

An image of something is duplicative in nature. Statues are made in
the image of a person. On the term 'image', the Broadman Bible
Commentary states:

It describes an exact resemblance, like a son who is the very image of
his father.


LIKENESS 

'Likeness' does not convey such precision as 'image'. To be like
someone means you possess MANY, but not ALL of the characteristics of
that person. Obviously, man does not possess God's perfection,
omnipotence, ability to create and divineness.

So to be created in God's likeness does not mean we were created
without the potential to sin.


Adam was like God not in his outward appearance but internally. We
must remember that God is spirit (John 4:24). He was a shadow of God.
In the New Testament we read that Jesus was not 'in the image of God'
like Adam but 'is the image of God'. Adam was made 'in' the image of
God. It does not say he 'is' the image of God. This is only true of
Jesus.
                              
               . . . in whose case the god of this world has blinded
the minds of the unbelieving,
               that they might not see the light of the gospel of the
glory of Christ, who is the
               image of God. (NASB) 2 Corinthians 4:4 

Man and God are alike in many ways - our image and likeness. We share
some of the same attributes or characteristics of God but to a lesser
degree. So we say that He is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent,
since He is infinite in every way. That  means God cannot and is not
limited in anyway.
                   
We are like God in many ways, but we are not God in anyway. There are,
however, two major areas that will send men and women to eternal
punishment. They are called holiness and righteousness. When Adam
sinned he was no longer holy. As a result, every man and woman born
into this world is going to an eternal punishment unless they repent
of their sins and depend on Jesus Christ to forgive their sins. Adam
and Eve were perfectly holy and righteous until they chose to sin.


EXAMPLES OF MAN'S IMAGE AND LIKENESS TO GOD 


1. A SOUL 

It is our soul that allows us to form a personal relationship with our
Creator. God reveals something about Himself by creating a creature
capable of forming a relationship with Him. The soul encompasses the
mind, emotions and will.


2. FREEDOM TO CHOOSE

Each of us is capable of comparing the options before us, and are free
to choose and make decisions. Like the angels, human beings possess
free will. God tries to guide each of us in the proper direction, but
He does not force His will upon us.

While God is always reaching out in an attempt to develop a
relationship with us, it is we who must choose to accept His
invitation. God's ability to forgive, and the unwavering patience He
displays in waiting for us, far surpasses the patience and forgiveness
that we display to our fellow man.


3. SOVEREIGNTY 

When God created Adam and put him in the garden of Eden, he gave him
the authority to rule over all the animals.
We are like God in the sense that we have been given sovereignty over
the entire Earth. God is responsible for the creation of the universe,
and likewise, we are responsible for our world. This sovereignty,
however, is not a birthright of ours. It is a sacred gift, given to us
from God; it is a delegated responsibility. Just as God has created
and formed our world to His liking, we are capable of changing it and
managing it to our liking.

This responsibility that has been entrusted to us must not be taken
for granted, because ultimately we are answerable to God for the
conditions of planet Earth and the state of our fellow human beings.


4. WISDOM 

None of us possess the wisdom of Almighty God, and few of us approach
the legendary wisdom of Solomon. Yet, wisdom is a characteristic that
both God and man possess. Only human beings, alone among all of God's
earthly creatures, possess the ability to understand right from wrong,
the ability to reason, and the maturity to make intelligent choices
without allowing selfish motives to consume us.


5. KNOWLEDGE 

Unlike the animals, human beings are capable of acquiring knowledge.
The vast reservoir of knowledge that we have accumulated in the past
century alone has expanded to a level that is virtually
incomprehensible to the average man. Quantum physics, laser
technology, virtual reality, nuclear fission, global communications,
personal computers, jet engines, television, and supercomputers are
all words and phrases that have become common in our society. We have
landed astronauts on our satellite, the moon, and safely brought them
home. We have landed space ships on Mars, and have sent probes beyond
the limits of our solar system. We have discovered distant galaxies
billions of light-years from Earth, and have developed microscopes
that can see the tiniest virus. We have unleashed the awesome power of
the atom, and have developed computer microprocessing chips so
efficient that they can perform billions of instructions every second.

Medical research has produced almost mind-boggling possibilities. We
have cloned animals, transplanted internal organs, performed laser
surgery, created workable prosthetics, and developed machines that
take x-rays, resonance images, sonograms, and monitor the heart, the
brain, and other organs. Dialysis cleanses our bodies, while heart
bypasses and chemotherapy adds years to our already increasing life
expectancy. Genetic research, new drugs, bio-research, and new medical
treatments hold promise for an even greater future.

There is another type of knowledge that only mankind possesses. We are
aware that life is only temporary, and that death is inevitable. We
are also aware of an afterlife. This knowledge of death and an
afterlife may give us a sense of purpose, and the inclination to
reflect upon our lives. While animals act mainly on instinct and the
need to fulfill their immediate desires, we are capable of looking
beyond our current situation. We are also aware that our actions today
may have consequences later in life and beyond our earthly departure.


6. LOVE AND COMPASSION 

When we speak of love and compassion, we tend to think of these
characteristics in human terms. However, we can also detect these very
same traits among many mammals. It is difficult to know whether
animals such as dogs, cats, and horses experience the same diversity
and depth of emotions that we experience. But many animals do appear
capable of love and compassion.

While it may be interesting that some animals exhibit the tender
quality of love (and possibly compassion), there is at least one
distinct difference between the love that animals and human beings are
capable of displaying and sharing - only man has the ability to
recognize, love, and worship God.


7. MORALITY 

Man is the only creature of God that understands the concept of
morality. We have actually written morality and rules of conduct into
the social-binding contracts that are contained in our laws. Human
beings possess a conscience, which seems to be derived from our soul.
Perhaps our ability to comprehend what is right and wrong best
exemplifies the way that we are most like God.



Sin separated humans from God. God still loved the human race, so He
sent His Son to die on the cross for these sins. This shows how great
God's love is for the human race. Human ways and thoughts are not the
same as God's ways and thoughts. Human beings are incapable of the
kind of love God is capable of.

The sin could not go unpunished, so a sacrifice had to be made, a
sacrifice which would bear our sins and be destroyed. The sacrifice
had to be perfect and without blemish. Therefore, God created Jesus
Christ for this very purpose. Jesus was human, yet without sin. He was
able to withstand temptation, was strong though he was weak, was not
rebellious, thus did not sin.

It is BECAUSE God is holy, that He can love the sinner. He is so holy,
that the love He has can reach beyond the sin. If we only love those
who are lovable, is that true love? The verse "I know that nothing
good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature." (Rom.7:18) refers to
the state of spiritual death man is in. Since man is body, soul and
spirit, he is still LIKE God in the soul, but is spiritually dead.
This fallen nature was caused by sin. As for the body, nobody has seen
God, so there isn't a way of knowing if He even HAS or NEEDS one or if
it's like His.





References:

The Bible, New International Version
http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/bk29/image.html
http://home.att.net/~jamspsu84/ttocimage.html
http://www.youthontherock.com/articles.php?mode=article&k=31

---

Clarification of Answer by aresearcher-ga on 04 Sep 2003 00:29 PDT

As aforementioned, He gave human beings a free will. When he created
them, they were 'perfect', until they CHOSE to sin.

God is too wise to be mistaken, yet He is too good to be unkind. 

There are some truths that our human minds cannot fathom, that we can
only know when we get to Heaven and meet God face to face. These
truths are not meant for us to know as yet. If the knowledge God has
were to be revealed to us, it could blow our minds.

What I would suggest for you right now is, read the whole Bible first,
making sure you understand as much as possible. After that, speak to a
Pastor who can enlighten you on God's truths. This Pastor needs to be
someone trustworthy and who comes from a good Christian church which
is not a cult. The Bible is definitely the word of God. Evidence is
found in the form of the Dead Sea scrolls. Found in 1947, these
original parchments of the Bible show that even through centuries of
copying, recopying and translating, the Bible is very accurate today.
This impossible task is evidence that God has been preserving His
word.



References:
The Bible,New International Version
http://www.ctsfw.edu/online/pilgrim/5-1/gieschen.php
http://www.sundayschoolcourses.com/deadsea/deadmain.htm#About the
Scrolls Themselves

---

Clarification of Answer by aresearcher-ga on 09 Sep 2003 19:07 PDT

Dear Grace,

If you have no further requests for clarification, I would appreciate
it if you would rate my answer. This is a very controversial topic,
and the debate could go on forever.

---

Clarification of Answer by aresearcher-ga on 10 Sep 2003 19:38 PDT

There definitely IS a God. We couldn't have been a mere accident, the
result of some 'Big Bang'. Look at how amazing the human body is, with
its intricate systems and functions. Things could easily go wrong, and
yet our bodies still work. Even until now, the human brain is a
mystery to scientists, because of its complexity. Look at the solar
systems. At any one time, any planet could go out of orbit, crashing
into other planets, and yet they remain in their orbits. Try taking a
watch and dismantle it. If you put all the components into a box and
shake it up, would everything get back together by themselves? Of
course not. A watch was created by somebody. Similarly, an intelligent
being must have created us.

The usual answer tothis one is that God loves the sinner, not the sin,
just as we continue to love and support our children even when they
have done wrong.

Ah, but that is the very awesome nature of God's holiness. That he can
love boundlessly, far beyond what we humans can imagine. That is why a
special word was created to describe God's love in the New Testament:
agape

"God does not love me because I am good, but because God is good," as
the old saying goes.

I also believe your assertion that we *changed* from being "in the
image of God" to being "sinful" is flawed. We still *are* in the image
of God, yet we are yet sinful. The two co-exist in us.

Kriswrite

God can only communicate his wishes to us [ in general] through his
word, the Bible. So it`s important to read ALL the pertinent
scriptures, throughout the entire Bible. Aresearcher-ga commented that
we are heading for " Eternal Punishment". Sorry, but this goes against
the scripture at Ecclesiastes 9;5 "For the living are conscious that
they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at
all. Commonsense dictates that it is just not possible to cause
further pain to a dead body. It can be further damaged or burnt or
whatever, but the person who once existed, no longer does so. The
afterlife as mentioned by the researcher,. does exist in heaven, but
only for 144,000 as set out in Revelation 14;1. But what about the
rest of mankind who have died. They are offered the "Resurrection"
following "Armageddon", again set out in Revelation. The so called
"Hellfire" and "Purgatory", so popular with mainline religion, is
simply the common grave of mankind, and has no basis in the
scriptures. As for God loving mankind, He still does but asks that we
repent from sin, before Armageddon, Revelation 16;8-10 clearly
explains what happens when we blaspheme the name of God and fail to
give Him glory.

I think some clarification needs to be made.

Here is the gist of it:

We are like God in many ways, but we are not God in any way. 

Human ways and thoughts are not the same as God's ways and thoughts.
Human beings are incapable of the kind of love God is capable of.
        
It is BECAUSE God is holy, that He can love the sinner. He is so holy,
that the love He has can reach beyond the sin. If we only love those
who are lovable, is that true love? The verse "I know that nothing
good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature." (Rom.7:18) refers to
the state of spiritual death man is in. Since man is body, soul and
spirit, he is still LIKE God in the soul, but is spiritually dead.
This fallen nature was caused by sin. As for the body, nobody has seen
God, so there isn't a way of knowing if He even HAS or NEEDS one or if
it's like His.
      
"There are, however, two major areas that will send men and women to
eternal punishment. They are called holiness and righteousness. When
Adam sinned he was no longer holy. As a result, every man and woman
born into this world is going to an eternal punishment unless they
repent of their sins and depend on Jesus Christ to forgive their sins.
Adam and Eve were perfectly holy and righteous until they chose to
sin."

This paragraph meant that because of sin, humans were forever
separated from God. Humans would go to hell when they died (left the
physical world), instead of going to heaven to be with God. God loved
the world so much, that He made a way out by giving His only Son,
Jesus to die on the cross for these sins. Whoever believes in Him,
shall not perish, but have eternal life.

The comment posted by pugwashjw was totally taken out of context.
Ecclesiastes was written by one who found that human wisdom, even that
of a godly person, has limits. It cannot find out the larger purposes
of God or the ultimate meaning of man's existence. He sees man
labouring as if he could master the world, lay bare its secrets,
change its fundamental structures, break through the bounds of human
limitations and master his own destiny. He sees man vainly pursuing
hopes and expectations that in reality are "meaningless, a chasing
after the wind". But faith teaches that life not centred on God is
purposeless and meaningless. Without him, nothing else can satisfy. So
this verse "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know
nothing" (Ecclesiastes 9:5) was actually a lament by the author who
was reflecting that life was meaningless because he had not himself
relied on God.

Dear grace1-ga, The question you ask is similar to the one I asked
myself at the age of ten in a Catholic primary school in Ireland: if
God is love, and if everything is love, and if He is perfect, why
would He have created us imperfect? It didn't make sense, and I knew
that the nuns couldn't answer the question, although possibly they
believed that they could, and on that basis, it would have been very
painful for me to ask them. So I didn't ask them, and as a result was
an inattentive student of the catechism.

However, and this may not be a satisfactory answer for you, this
apparent paradox is explained in A Course In Miracles. If you ever get
a chance to pick up this book and read it, you will see that there is
something about the way it is written that is very different from
anything else you have ever read. It does not have the quality of
being written by a human being. A Course In Miracles, which appears to
be written by Jesus of Nazareth, gives a completely understandable and
logically coherent account of sin and God's love. I hope you will
enjoy reading it.

Another plausible explanation is that the bible was written by
well-meaning humans, who did not get all their stories straight. And
that trying to resolve all the ambiguities that resulted is quite
possibly impossible.

Personally I do not believe God exists at all. It certainly saves
having to struggle with these sorts of problems, but that's my opinion
and I respect those of others. But for me the Bible is just too far
fetched.

If I place myself in a box slighly larger than I am,
I shouldnt spend too much time wondering why jogging
is so difficult. 

You are asking a philosophical question of a theological
text---placing yourself in a box and trying to go for
a jog. 

Sin. Good. Existence. These are the concepts you need to
understand to get yourself out of your box. Anything
that exists is good insofar as it is. It
achieves the purpose of it's idea through existing. 
Everyone will tell you God loves the sinner not the sin but to
get out of your box, you need to understand conceptually
why it's possible for God to even love a sin. Careful,
I did not say God loves sin itself...but it is correct, in
a sense to say he loves a sin defined in a certain way.

The easiest way to get out of your box is to read
Aquinas on Sin. Google it--read as much of it as
you can--read what others say about it, pro and
con. At some point, conceptually the issue will fall
away for you and you will move onto more interesting
intellectual challenges such as why is God is the
Trinity and not the Duplicity. Do *not* waste your time reading
the entire bible as suggested above. That's like
trying to learn how to make a phonecall by studying
the phonebook. Bah!!

Also, it woudl be very cool of you to post a follow
up on the issue after having read Aquinas. If you
read his work on the topic but still find you are
still in the quandry, I will pay you $25. ;-)

Hi. You have a legitimate question that has been asked since time
immemorial.

I'd just like to comment that people generally tend to overanalyze God
and His relationship with man. This may be an offshoot of man's
natural arrogance, the belief that he is in control of his life,
rather than God.

Christianity is really such a simple concept, though many people find
it hard to grasp and/or practice.

I suggest you consider studying the Bible with someone. If you're
really interested, try visiting this website: www.upcyberdown.org.

You may find what you're looking for there.

Best regards,

JOHNNYBRAVO2003