Google Answers Logo
View Question
 
Q: Devices to work with my split power bill ( Answered,   2 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Devices to work with my split power bill
Category: Science > Technology
Asked by: headsetsdotcom-ga
List Price: $40.00
Posted: 22 Aug 2003 20:00 PDT
Expires: 21 Sep 2003 20:00 PDT
Question ID: 247811
I use PG&E for power in California.  I'm on the split pricing which
means i pay about 8cents/kw for 6pm through noon next day and about
31cents/kw for noon through 6pm.    I'm looking for devices that are
intelligent enough to take advantage of that. i.e. Here'e three ideas:
1)  heat the water up at 11:45 so when i use hot water at 2pm i'm
using 8 cent water not 31 cent water  2)turn the air cond/heating on
at 11:45 for the same reason  3) super intelligent would turn the
solar heating for the pool on at 11:30, then off at noon, but probably
a burst at 1:30pm to  take advantage of mid pm maximum sun, but would
work all this out according to the differential of temperature 
between the water feeding into the solar and the water coming out.

i'm price this quesiton on finding my devices for 1 and 2 above.
Please find the actual devices.  I'll take alternative devices that I
haven't thought of yet. If you can find me a device that does 3 above
then i'd like to tip well.

Please don't answer with information pages on saving energy. I'll skim
them if you post them as a comment, (thank you!) but I want to buy
acutual devices that do this.

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 22 Aug 2003 20:26 PDT
I'd just like to mak sure I understand your question.  There seems to
be a simple answer, which is to buy a timer for any device you want
turn on or off (similar to the type of timers that are commonly used
to turn house lights on and off at set times).

I suspect you're looking for something a bit more complex than that,
but I'm not clear what it is you're after.  Could you clarify, so that
I or another researcher can best meet your needs.

Thanks.

Clarification of Question by headsetsdotcom-ga on 22 Aug 2003 20:46 PDT
Pafalafa, thanks for your interest.  Yes, I can see why it's needing
clarification.  A timer might be the best I can do.  But, I don't want
to turn the heater on at 11:45 if its hot.  I also don't want to not
heat the water at all between noon and 6pm.  A thermostat that
understandst the value of the 4 to 1 power cost before noon would do
the trick. I think. I"m still formulating this myself. Does this start
to make sense?

Clarification of Question by headsetsdotcom-ga on 23 Aug 2003 15:28 PDT
www.heatsiphon.com does not give me the answer. i've been there but it
relates to cost of heating the pool by gas etc, rather than the cost
of running the pump. To clarify, I use Solar heating, and it's the
electric cost of running the pump that i want to maximize the
efficiency of.  thanks!
Answer  
Subject: Re: Devices to work with my split power bill
Answered By: hedgie-ga on 19 Sep 2003 02:46 PDT
 
Dear headsetsdotcom,

 In our joint effort here, what we are designing is a system to 
 control heating .. (HVAC)  in  a residential home in California,
 house with solar panels,  pool and double-rate electricity. 
 
 We want to  know the optimum time  to
                                        
 1) turn  hot water heater on/off
 2) turn the air cond/heating on /off
 3) run solar to heat the pool  

   and  to find devices that are intelligent enough to do  that .

  In other words, we want to design a smart  HVAC control system.


First,  we need to agree on the use of terms, so  here are 
some terms used in control engineering:                       
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Search Terms
   HVAC smart control 
   HVAC smart control optimal   

         
 Closed vs Open loop control
   The closed loop system is responding to the actual situation
   as determined by sensors. Sometime the sky is cloudy and 
   high winds cool the pool.   The average temperature
   for that  time of the day and day of the year , which an open
   loop system would use would be a poor guidance in such a case.

 Smart system 
   An intelligent system anticipates the response of the system as
  well as the requirements. For example, If I usually come home
 at 6pm and want temperature to be 70 degrees, the system needs
 to know how long it takes to raise the temperature when heater
 is turned on.

 Optimal system 
   To optimise performance, the system has a concept of  a  goal.
 Usually there are several goals:  keep  the living space and pool at
the selected
 temperatures AND minimise the energy cost. The multiple goals
 are combined into a Generalised Cost function C,  using weights.

 For example 

        C = Sum-over-time ( price * power + weight_1* (Ta1- Ts1) +
weight_2*(Ta2 -Ts2))

  All quantities are a function of time

  price(t) is given by the  energy rates 8c/min per kw up to noon and
31c/min per kw from noon to 6pm
  power(t) is the energy used by the system at that time, to achieve
the goal
   
 weights w_n(t) are selected bu the user :

    We can have several spaces, where we select what conditions we
want, when,
  and how important that contion is: 
     
          For example:
        
                                 We want   temperature to be Ts  (
T_selected )   at space 1,
                  the actual (measured)  temperarure will be Ta 
(T_actual)
                  By selecting     weight_1  we are specifying  what
we are willing to pay
                  to  keep temperature near  the selected value Ts    
(  e.g,    w_1 = .01   $/ min * degree )
     
 Weight w_n ai also function of time: If we are not home until 6pm,
the weight would be 0 until then.
 The cost function can be more complex than in this example. 
  Weight  can be zero for a deviation up to three degrees and rise
sharply after that...

    The 'spaces and conditions may be'  e.g temperature of the pool,
of the ID hot water, ..

 Adaptive system
  An adaptive system is able to learn from experience.  To achieve the
optimum
  (lowest generalised cost C)  the  system has to anticipate the
response of the 'plant' (see below).
   It has to know e.g. the Thermal inertia of   the pool, house, ..
and have statistics of
   such random, unpredicable parameters  as the weather.
   Sometimes a fixed  model of the controlled system (called the
"plant")  is build into the control system,
   but when the system changes from time to time, adaptive control
improves the model of the
   'plant'  as the system is learning.   
              
   These are the control system terms.    
_________________________________________
    Using these terms, our  question can now be stated as follows:
   _____________________________________________________

           How can we design  a smart adaptive closed control system
for a
residential object, with solar heating and pool,  which will optimise
the General Cost function?

  These problems, or ones like this, are  being  solved for the large 
industrial plants,
                  http://www.bchydro.com/business/investigate/investigate854.html

  The solution is provided by a computer, remote sensors, and a
computer program
written or adapted to a particular building complex by HVAC engineers.

  The goal of our search is to find  a solution which can be
implemented using a home computer
 and that  is smart  enough to adapt to a specific home 
automatically, possibly using AI algoritms.
  (Thus eliminating labor-intensive engineering design specifc to a
particular plant.)

                
Search  terms
 ://www.google.com/linux?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=HVAC+control


1)  The closest thing I have found to such a system is 

  NIc-aerc project         (ID -- InDoors OD=OutDoors)
   
 This project gets weather prediction data over the internet.
 Predicted and measured OD temperatures are correlated to establish
 a bias due to the micro-climate at the site, 
Measured ID and OD temperatures are correlated to determine the
thermal lag time,
HVAC controls are correlated with measured ID temperature to monitor
 the response rate of the house (i.e. based on HVAC capacity, on-site
weather, etc.)
Variable-rate energy pricing and the setpoint schedule are correlated
to develop
 a cost-efficient HVAC schedule.        

  http://www.stratis-ltd.com/gpl/nic-aerc/index.html  
  It  illustrates good design  and  provides interesting links   to
resources
   http://www.stratis-ltd.com/gpl/nic-aerc/refs_links.html   

  So, it can be done. The author here may be willing to share what he
has developed.


2)      The idea of using the weather forcast was developed
          by the Swedish branch of Honeywell into a product:   
WeatherGain


When you use WeatherGain, the building's control equipment knows what
the
weather and the energy requirement will be, hour by hour, 3-5 days in
advance.
 WeatherGain has been developed by Honeywell 
INUcontrol and SMHI (the Swedish Meteorological and Hydrological
Institute),
 where Professor Roger Taessler has calculated something called
" the equivalent temperature" (ET). The equivalent 
temperature describes the effect of temperature, sun and wind,
 in combination with data on the type of building, in terms of
location, orientation,
 characteristics and function  ...
  http://www.honeywell.se/inu/        
 ______________________________________________
 Devices and protocols which  communicate sensor data
_______________________________________________
              
  To put a system together,  we would start with some type of simple 
home automation program
  that we can modify and  adapt.  We are now searching for Open Source
resources.

  Here are few components which could be used as seeds:

 1)   "MisterHouse is an open source home automation program. 
It's fun, it's free, and it's entirely geeky. Written in Perl, it
fires events based on time,
web, socket, voice, and serial data. It currently runs on Windows
95/98/NT/2k/XP
and on most Unix based platforms, including Linux and Mac OSX. 
It can talk, it can check your messages, control the lights, program
your VCR,
and what is best - it understands spoken commands." 
   http://www.misterhouse.net/

2)  Here are some techniques  for  Automating Your Home
An enormously cool powerline protocol called X-10 enables compatible
devices
 throughout the home to exchange information using the 110 volt wiring
 that's already installed. Using X-10 products, you 
can automate a heating/cooling system, create low-cost but advanced
security systems,
 turn appliances on or off, control your home theatre, and much more.
(For a nifty directory of home automation Web 
sites, see http://home-automation.org/.)
http://SoftwareForHomes.com/heating.htm    

 3)    Here is a list of Linux-based home-control resources .
     Some can be used on Windows systems as well, being based 
     on perls, tcl or other such OS independent language. 
     Also, the final control system could be run by an old computer 
on which
     linux with approprite software was installed. 
            http://www.geocities.com/linuxhomeautomation/    
           
  4) Here, one example from the above about  swimming pool control
with Linux .
       It deals with pool chemistry, not heating in this case, but
perhaps
       it's is of interest
       http://www.truetex.com/poolcontrol.htm   
 
 _____________________________________________          
   Your type of question is very current, globally speaking.
    For background information there are many academic 
    research projects  seeking solutions.
______________________________________________
  Ongoing  research,  looking for such  (AI) solutions


   in Europe  
 ...................... 
                            The EDIFICIO project, funded in part by
the EU
Commission in the frame of the JOULE III Programme, has the goal of
developing
 innovative, adaptive, integrated control systems for the optimal
energy management
 and indoor comfort in buildings. This is achieved by using 
Soft Computing Techniques (SCT), specially Fuzzy Logic (FL),
Artificial Neural Networks (ANNs) and Genetic Algorithms (GAs).  

 http://www.csem.ch/detailed/pdf/e_Paper_Edificio.pdf.      

   ... procedures and guidance on ventilation and source control. ...
materials, HVAC components,
 complete HVAC systems and ... year-round performance of ?smart?
systems. ...
www.enerbuild.net/docs/PLEA_2000_Cambridge.doc

    and in the US: 
................................
 ....   We are fostering the development of more intelligent,
integrated, and optimized building
mechanical systems. We use a dynamic building heating, ventilating,
and
air-conditioning (HVAC) control system simulation program to study
HVAC control
system dynamics and interactions... 
  http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/guide/enhanced_building.htm

      and elswhere in the world
  ----------------------------------------

      Public and Private Initiatives in Sustainable Building  - 44
page report
  www.cyberbites.com/dcat/Resources/ green_building_initiatives.pd

              
   Here are 122 pages on modern trends in Control systems
              www.cds.caltech.edu/~murray/cdspanel/
report/cdspanel-15aug02.pdf
   ___________
   
In conclusion
_____________

          A system  which would realize intelligent control of 
 heating the pool, heating and cooling house, and heating water 
can be built, using a home computer, possibly an old slow computer
running linux OS and suitable control and simulation software. 
It would use X10 protocol to cummunicate with sensors and
switches and possibly, over the internet,  with weather forcasts.
 
It would require some custom programming (perl, tcl, or c)
or, perhaps, in time, it may use some adaptive control systems
 which 'will measure and learn' the parameters of the system (thermal
inertia, time lag of heaters, weather patterns ..).   
Study of the 'academic resources'  listed above may lead to the source
of
such a program. When such program is located, one does not need the
set of equations and parameters for the house. AI programs such as
Neural Network can build suitable model 'on the fly' .
Such equations are available, if needed ( Request a clarification
on this,  if you need it).
        
 
   Simulation
====================================  
   search terms
          computer model, heating, home   simulation

 Simulation of the whole plant ( house, solar panels, pool ..) is
highly recommended.
 It not only allows one to test ideas and designs, but can be
eventually used as
 a major part of the control system itself.    Simulation of the whole
control
system and plant is an excellent tool for developing and testing the
design.

This site may have some data, but no computer program is apparent
     http://www.eere.energy.gov/solarbuildings/publications.html  

       
    Energy Smart Pools Software
 A tool to analyze ... tools for building analysis, HVAC equipment and
systems ...
www.es.wapa.gov/energy_solutions/
res_list.cfm?category=Software%20Tools&subcategory=%20General - 52k -
17 Sep 2003
          


 This simulation was developed for greenhouses
  It may be adaptable to a residence  and pool
      http://www.actahort.org/books/135/135_7.htm   

   This describes the use of  VisSim   modelling software     
     http://www.vissim.com/apps/dupont.htm 
  This is commercial software available for a free trial. 
  

     Here is a  long list of simulation tools
        http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:iVvv05ZmXrgJ:arch.hku.hk/research/BEER/best.htm+computer+simulation+model,+heating+home&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8

    and here is the  home of     DOE-2 and BLAST , two programs
mentione above.
One would have to spend time testing and evaluating the models they
developed
to the task being considered here. 
Authors  should be able to answer questions and provide guidance.
                http://gundog.lbl.gov/dhomepage.html        

     

       
  Let me know what you think of these links.

  If needed, please use the " request  for clarfication" not only to
ask for  further
  explanations of points vovered here but to indicate directions for
  further search which may be needed to complete the answer.
  Please do clarify whether  you  are willing
  to do any programing, wiring, oriwhether  you would contract
  that portion out, if  a ready made solution is not found. 
  The Bay Area  has plenty of resurces for  custom programing 
  if that would be necessary.

hedgie
Comments  
Subject: Re: Devices to work with my split power bill
From: omniscientbeing-ga on 23 Aug 2003 00:27 PDT
 
headsetsdotcom-ga,

I am not convinced that there are any automation solutions inexpensive
enough to make your idea cost-effective. The water heater could be
done, with the heater being triggered by temperature sensors in both
the water and the air, such as those used in the aquaculture and
agriculture industries to trigger alarms when some threshhold
affecting the crops has been reached, but the cost of implementing it
would more than offset any gains by using less electricity. I don't
think there's any viable solution other than to set the
electricity-hogging devices to run during the wee hours whenever and
whereever possible, using a common timer as discussed in the Comments
above. If you're a computer programmer, you could probably write the
programs yourself in Visual Basic Industrial (VBI), which is a subset
of Microsft's VB language which allows machinery and process control
interfaces. However, as you stated, you need to have data inputted to
the program automatically, such as water and air temp, and these
sensors (even the cheap ones)are expensive, and require a certain
amount of regular maintenance.

Another step in the right direction, although still not the total and
complete control you seek, would be to employ web-enabled devices. The
simplest of these are simple ON/OFF switches that are controllable
from the internet. I'm sure you're familiar with the X10 line of
products--they make some type of web-based home automation kits. This
would allow you at least to turn things ON and OFF when you're away
from home, and also to change the timing schedule. If any of this
sounds like it's in the right direciton for you, indicate such and
I'll get into more detail/possibilities for you. I once worked with a
guy who just wanted his PC to open is window blinds at 730 AM every
weekday morning, but not until 1030 AM on weekends. He had some kind
of robot arm controlled by his PC that turned the blind opener-rod. It
is amazing how little PC's actually do physically, in the real
world--you would think they could control more household things by
now.
omniscientbeing-ga
~GA Researcher
Subject: Re: Devices to work with my split power bill
From: owain-ga on 24 Aug 2003 05:57 PDT
 
1 and 2 should be achievable using a standard timeswitch with the ons
and offs set appropriately; the water heater or aircon's own
thermostat should stop the device operating unneccessarily. 3 is more
difficult.

Here in the UK we have widespread use of Economy 7 tariff where
electricity is cheaper for a 7 hour period between about midnight and
8 am, and water heater controllers are widely available, eg
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/HOELEC7.html

In fact the power companies here use teleswitches for off-peak storage
heating control, they turn your storage room heaters on at night for
the right length of time according to the weather forcast. Might be
worth speaking to the electricity co, they may have some useful
leaflets - it is in their interest to reduce the peak demand from
consumers by promoting off-peak use.

Owain


Owain

Important Disclaimer: Answers and comments provided on Google Answers are general information, and are not intended to substitute for informed professional medical, psychiatric, psychological, tax, legal, investment, accounting, or other professional advice. Google does not endorse, and expressly disclaims liability for any product, manufacturer, distributor, service or service provider mentioned or any opinion expressed in answers or comments. Please read carefully the Google Answers Terms of Service.

If you feel that you have found inappropriate content, please let us know by emailing us at answers-support@google.com with the question ID listed above. Thank you.
Search Google Answers for
Google Answers  


Google Home - Answers FAQ - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy