I am looking for detailed drawings/with dimensions/,including pictures
of the tin apparatus and stand from which the street vendor of baked
potatoes sold his goods during the time period of 1860 to 1890.

---

Request for Question Clarification by huntsman-ga on 13 Jun 2002 13:40 PDT

oneofbob,

A challenging question! Some clarifications would be helpful:

1. Are you only interested in baked potato "street food" equipment
used within the United Kingdom (Britain, Ireland, Scotland, Wales)?

2. As long as it was within the same 1860-90 time period, would
equipment used on the European Continent or within the United States
also qualify?

3. Are you looking specifically for *online* drawings, dimensions, and
pictures, or could these be in a book, article, or journal?

4. When you say "detailed drawings", do you mean dimensioned
construction plans or just a general illustration with something that
provides a sense of scale?

Lastly, if I might be so bold, why are you looking for this
information?

Thanks,
huntsman

---

Clarification of Question by oneofbob-ga on 13 Jun 2002 15:10 PDT

Last first!! I have been asked to find detail that can be used to make
a one off vendor's cabinet.  I have a copy of a crude drawing of a
vendor with the unit but no details.  Need any info available
including materials that were used in manufacture, ( expect tin but
other also may be used) of the cooker or warmer cabinet.  The picture
I have indicates it to be either or both.

1. I understand that the vendor often sold baked potatoes at sporting
events to onlookers.  Interested mainly in English vendors portable
equipment.

2. U S equipment OK if it was copied from English.  I am looking for
detailed drawings/with dimentions, including pictures of the apparatus
and stand from which the street vendor of baked potatos sold his
goods. The time period desired is about 1880.

3. Where the info is to be found is of no consequence. Just must be
available to me.  Scanned materials emailed to me may be satisfactory.

4.I prefer detailed, dimensioned drawings for construction of unit. 
May accept something less if it is something I can use to draw plans
for a unit.

Thanks for your interest, Huntsman.

---

Request for Question Clarification by huntsman-ga on 13 Jun 2002 16:54 PDT

oneofbob,

Thanks for your clarification. It sounds like an interesting project.

If you'll indulge me with a few more questions:

5. So this really more like a hot food box with a strap, easily
carried by one man, as opposed to a standup booth or pushcart?

6. Will the final box piece be fully functional, accurate in materials
and finish? Will it be seen up close, perhaps at a sporting event,
convention, sales meeting, or trade show?

7. If the box doesn't have to work, does it mainly have to look good,
like a movie or stage prop?

8. Can you tell us the source of the crude drawing you have? 

9. From your drawing, could you give a ballpark idea (no pun intended)
of the box's overall size?

I may need to contact third parties on this and need a good mental
image of what you're asking for.

huntsman

---

Request for Question Clarification by huntsman-ga on 15 Jun 2002 05:17 PDT

oneofbob,

Please note my comment posted below.

huntsman

oneofbob, 

A challenge indeed.
  
I have not been able to locate any plans, drawings or specific
descriptions of the equipment used by Victorian baked potato street
vendors. For that reason, I'm posting this response as a comment
rather than an answer.

I have found several sources of information that may point you in the
right direction.

huntsman

-----

Manufacturers of Hot Food Boxes and Potato Ovens -

In the United States -

Hot Food Boxes, Inc.
4107-T W. Lake St.
Chicago, IL 60624-1719

Tel: 800-468-3663 
Tel: 773-533-5912
Fax: 773-533-5475
Web: http://www.hotfoodboxes.com

Hot Food Boxes, Inc. has been in business since 1953. They make food
service equipment and have annual sales of several million dollars.
They export products to Africa, Asia, Australia, Eastern Europe, Latin
America & The Caribbean, Middle East, North America, and Western
Europe.

It's possible that one of their British or European distributors might
have some relevant information.

The HFB catalog lists the following models of portable hot food boxes
(also called "stadium vending" "hawker boxes"):

S1 & S1S Models 
http://www.hotfoodboxes.com/profile.cfm?series=23 

HFB's S1 model is electrical (it uses a car's cigarette lighter), but
the S1S model uses "canned heat" [Sterno] fuel, held in a sliding
drawer under the box. Given the undeveloped state of electrical power
at the time, I would think that the S1S model is closest in design to
a hot food box from the mid to late 19th century.

The S1S sells for about $800.00. It's an insulated aluminum box over a
steel frame, with a hinged lid and a heavy-duty shoulder strap. Its
basic specifications are:

Overall Dimensions* (Width X Depth X Height): "191/4" x "111/2" x
"181/4"
Weight: 27 lbs. empty. 
Load Capacity: 12 lbs. of hot food (about 60 hot dogs)
Total Carrying Weight: 35 lbs. 

*It's not entirely clear from the HFB Web site what these dimensions
represent. Possibly millimeters, but that seems to result in a very
small box.

Here is an S1S feature page with its construction and feature details:
http://www.hotfoodboxes.com/info.cfm?series=23&model=S1S 

There's a clear photo of the S1S food box here:
http://www.hotfoodboxes.com/large.cfm?series=23&model=S1S

The S1S feature page has a link to a "Technical Drawing", but nothing
appears when you click it.


England -

"Victorian Baking Ovens" (http://www.victorianovens.co.uk) is a
current English manufacturer of ovens, kettles, and kitchen
accessories. Several of their ovens are designed expressly for
potatoes.

The Original Potato Station - a countertop model
http://www.victorianovens.co.uk/potato_station.html

"It's a baking oven
It's an illuminated warmer
It's a bain marie*
It's a merchandiser 
It's a menu board

[*see http://www.foodreference.com/html/artbainmarie.html ]
 
Colour Finish or Stainless Steel - other colour options include green,
black, burgundy and bronze. Other colour areas available to match
existing themes - on application. The glass menu/sneeze screen is
reversible for either back or front counter siting, decorated with
attractive motifs and accepts liquid chalk pens."

3 in 1 Potato Station - countertop model
http://www.victorianovens.co.uk/3in1.html

The Queen Victoria Potato Baker - floor stand with glass cabinet
http://www.victorianovens.co.uk/queenvicoven.html

King Henry mobile potato baker - large towable cart for fairs and
festivals
http://www.victorianovens.co.uk/vicmobile.html

Copies of the VBO brochures, with models, features, and dimensions,
are available as online JPG slide shows (or downloadable PDF files)
here:

http://www.victorianovens.co.uk/brochures/index.html

I suggest that you email VBO directly: they may be able to refer you
to a local source of historical information.

Victorian Baking Ovens Limited
Unit 40 Central Trading Estate
Cable Street
Wolverhampton, United Kingdom
WV2 2HX

Tel: 0044 (0)1902 351477 and 351451
Fax: 0044 (0)1902 351437
Email: sales@vb-ovens.co.uk

-----

Pictures and Descriptions of Potato Stands -

A queue of customers at a baked potato stand in Preston, the Flyde,
England:

Preston Town Center
http://www.fredmoor.com/thefylde/pix/prest.htm

An undated painting of an (American?) sweet potato street vendor and
his cart:

Sweet Potato Vendor
by Ezra Jack Keats
http://www.ezra-jack-keats.org/FineArt/Potato%20vendor.htm

A picture, description, and hawker's sound file of a modern Japanese
baked sweet potato stand built into the back of a light truck:

Japanese Sound Collection
http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/information/sounds/ishiyakiimo.html

-----

Stories and Anecdotes -

These experiences and anecdotes offer some additional insights about
how hawkers ply their trade.

The Business -

Philadelphia City Paper
May 22–29, 1997
Dog Boy - My Night Hawking Red-Hots for the Lukewarm Phillies.
By Neil Gladstone
http://citypaper.net/articles/052297/article005.shtml

"It's all about hustling," says Bankster, who's seen plenty of vendors
come and go over the past 17 years. When the stadium was still selling
beer five years ago, it was easy to find people who wanted to vend. In
the past few years, though, only old-timers have been interested in
working the stands.

"You can walk around casually and get by, but if you really want to
make some money you've got to move," he advises. The same person might
ignore you 15 times, he adds, but on the 16th pass they'll finally
decide to buy."

"Vendors earn a 15 percent commission on the dogs that are sold for $3
each. Every time a dog hawker hits the stands, he or she carries a
load of 40. Ergo, each load grosses $120 for Ogden Entertainment, the
company that runs the concessions, and about $18 for the vendor."

"Hot dog vending began around 100 years ago when hawkers at the Polo
Grounds in NYC started selling German sausages on Vienna rolls,
yelling "Get your red-hots!" I'm still not sure what phrase I'll
choose to advertise my wares. Street criers in colonial times used to
yawp rhyming couplets... [note the "Georgian Index" references below]"

"I've been told that if you place the box upwind from patrons who are
considering a purchase, they'll get a whiff of the boiled goodness and
be enticed to buy."

""How much is it apiece?" asks the man.
"Three dollars."
"Sheesh," interjects a blonde toddler with a bowl cut.
What am I supposed to say? Look, if it were me I wouldn't pay it
either. The same all-beef franks at the concessions stand cost $2.75
and they wholesale for 37 cents. That's quite a profit margin. I mean,
"sheesh" is right."

"Watching him [the veteran, Ellis] work the crowd, you'd think he was
a minister greeting parishioners after Sunday service. Always a smile
on his face and a kind word for the regulars: "Hi, sweetheart!""Where
you been?""Hey, you finally decided to come this year.""

"The dog market is better if the Phillies are winning, says Ellis."

"I know I'm getting better because Stacey Blohm, the soda lady, is
starting to swoop behind me when I make a sale."

"Ellis said that if you walk down two aisles and there's no sale, you
know that you'd better stop soon. You might be able to get rid of
another load, but it'll take you twice as much time and three times as
much walking."

"Vendors have to pay for every load of product they take out,
regardless of whether or not they sell it. On the third round, it
appears that this evening might turn into a losing venture, especially
when I start running low on $1 bills."

Pleasant Memories -

Recalling Street Vendors in the 1920s
http://www.virtualnewarknj.com/memories/thirdward/bodianvend.htm

"When I think back to my early childhood days on that Montgomery
Street block bounded by Quitman and Monmouth Streets in Newark's old
Third Ward, I am reminded of the variety of street vendors who made
stops on that block on a regular basis."

"In the fall, I remember the sweet potato man, pushing a hand cart
with hot sweet potatoes.  For a penny, three cents, or a nickel, you
could buy warmed up sweet potatoes of varying sizes."

"Children of the 1920s from other Newark neighborhoods may have
different recollections of street vendors, but for us 6, 7 and 8 year
olds, our Montgomery Street block was our own little world, and these
vendors were part of our world."

-----

The Victorian Era -

You can contact these sources for more information about Victorian
street vendors: perhaps they know a hobbyist or collector with good
historical knowledge.

The Victorian Society in America
219 South Sixth Street 
Philadelphia, PA 19106 
Tel: 215-627-4252 
Fax: 215-627-7221 
Email: info@victoriansociety.org
Web: http://www.victoriansociety.org/

"The Victorian Society in America is the only national organization
dedicated to the protection, understanding, education, and enjoyment
of our nineteenth century heritage. No matter what your interest in
Victoriana may be, The Victorian Society in America can provide you
with information, publications, and excursions to make your nineteenth
century investigations more enjoyable and rewarding."

The VSIA has local chapters in several states:

Local Chapters of the Victorian Society in America
http://www.victoriansociety.org/chapters.html

Other Victorian Web sites -

The Victorian Web
http://65.107.211.206/victov.html

Scrote's English Food
Roast Potatoes
http://www3.mistral.co.uk/apbw/potato.htm 

The Charles Dickens Page
http://www.fidnet.com/~dap1955/dickens/dickens_london.html

A Dickens Festival -

Garrison, North Dakota holds an annual Christmas "Dickens Village
Festival" with street vendors selling baked potatoes.

Dickens Village Festival
"Come Have a Dickens of a Time"
http://www.dickensfestival.com/Dickens2.pdf

"Where else in the dead of winter on Main
Street can you enjoy a hot-baked potato
(called “jackets” in Olde England)..."

It may be possible to find out who their potato street vendor is:
perhaps you could obtain cart details and/or plans from them. Contact
the Festival office directly at:

Dickens Village Festival
Garrison, North Dakota
Tel: 1-800-799-4242 
Email: dickens@dickensfestival.com 
Web: http://www.dickensfestival.com/

-----

A Little Earlier in English History -

The "Georgian Index" (http://www.georgianindex.net) has pictures,
descriptions, wares, and cries of street vendors in *Georgian*
England, from 1714 to 1837.

When you visit these pages, pause your mouse cursor over a picture to
see its description.

Vendors, and Others Who Work in the Street
http://www.georgianindex.net/vendor/vendors.html
http://www.georgianindex.net/London/extras.html
http://www.georgianindex.net/vendor/costor.html

"New Potatoes" girl with cart (also known as a "potato badger" or
"coster").
(1st row, 3rd column from left))
http://www.georgianindex.net/London/extras.html

"Right Yorkshire Cakes and Hot Muffins" vendor
(4th row down, 4th column from left) 
http://www.georgianindex.net/vendor/costor.html

-----

Ask the Local Experts -

This subject obviously calls for some local expertise. Google's Web
Directory lists some British Libraries that you can submit enquiries
to:

The British Library offers a "Business Information Service"
(http://portico.bl.uk/services/information/business.html) which
accepts enquiries via email. Submit your question with their online
enquiry form at http://portico.bl.uk/services/information/bis_enq.html.

According to their Web site, "...e-mail enquiries will be answered
within 2 working days. The maximum length of research time per enquiry
is 15 minutes."

The British "Science Museum Library"
(http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/library/) also accepts public
enquiries by email. For more details and their email address, see
their "Information Services" page at
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/library/infoserv.asp.

British Potato Information -

The British Potato Council (http://www.potato.org.uk/) provides
information for schools and teachers:

British Potato Council
"Dig Potatoes"
http://www.potato.org.uk/include.asp?sec=52&con=52
http://www.potatoesforschools.org.uk/winhome.htm

Here is the BPC's general contact information:

British Potato Council
4300 Nash Court
John Smith Drive
Oxford Business Park
Oxford
OX4 2RT

Tel: 01865 714455
Fax: 01865 782231 

For specific consumer information, contact:

Sue Caudwell, Marketing Assistant, Oxford office 
Tel: 01865 782260
Fax: 01865 782254
Email: scaudwell@potato.org.uk 01865 782260  

For specific research information, contact:

Steve Gerrish, Information Resources Manager, Oxford office 
Tel: 01865 782270
Fax: 01865 782283
Email: sgerrish@potato.org.uk

-----

Street Food Resources -

For more information about modern potato stands, or possibly low-tech
models that might be used in Third-World countries, you can contact
this activist organization (or the author of the study cited below).

OpenAir-Market Net
The World Wide Guide to Farmers' Markets, Street Markets, Flea Markets
and Street Vendors
http://www.openair.org/

Street Food Around the World 
http://www.openair.org/opair/strtfood.html

Book Abstract
http://www.openair.org/opair/strtink.html

Street Foods: Urban Food and Employment in Developing Countries
by Irene Tinker*, Department of City & Regional, Planning, 228 Wurster
Hall, U. of California at Berkeley, Berkeley, CA 94720-1850
Oxford University Press, 1997

*Email: itinker@ced.berkeley.edu

"Street Foods recounts efforts of an action-research project by a
small research group, the equity Policy Center [EPOC], to improve the
income of street food vendors and the safety of the food they sell.
The original studies were conducted in provincial cities in seven
countries: Philippines, Thailand, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Egypt,
Nigeria, and Senegal."

"Descriptions of the cities and their street foods, including recipes
of local favorites, comprise the first part of the book. So intriguing
were preliminary findings that the Food and Agricultural Organization
[FAO] and independent scholars expanded the research to many other
cities. These findings are incorporated in the analytical chapters of
the book."

Potato History & Slang Terms -

Five Centuries Prove Adaptability of New World's "'Tater"
http://www.foodhistory.com/foodnotes/leftovers/tater.htm

"The name "potato" is derived from the Caribbean Indian word for sweet
potato, "batata," which the Spanish changed to "patata" and the
English corrupted to "potato." Most people on the continent initially
were afraid to eat potatoes, believing them to cause leprosy.

Botanically the potato is kin to the poisonous nightshade (as are
tomatoes and the eggplant), a fact which may partly explain folks'
suspicion of the plant. By the mid-1700's, though, Europeans were
eating potatoes. Their use in fact was to prevalent in Ireland that
when a blight destroyed the potato crops between 1845 and 1847 about
750,000 persons died of starvation and disease.

During that period, hundreds of thousands of people left Eire, coming
to the United States. Here they sought out their beloved food. Irish
immigrants bought hot roasted potatoes from street vendors in Boston
and New York and the nicknames of "mickies" and "murphies" (referring
to the potatoes) evolved. The Irish people dug their American/Irish
potatoes with spades. From "spade" we get the moniker "spuds.""

-----

Search Terms & Google URLs -

- street food history
://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=street+food+history&btnG=Google+Search

- hot food boxes
://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=hot+food+boxes&btnG=Google+Search

- stadium vending "hawker boxes"
://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=stadium+vending+%22hawker+boxes%22&btnG=Google+Search

- street vendors potatoes
://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=street+vendors+potatoes&btnG=Google+Search

- victorian england baked potato
://www.google.com/search?q=victorian%20england%20baked%20potato&svnum=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=N&tab=iw

- Google Web Directories
Regional > Europe > United Kingdom > Arts and Entertainment >
Libraries
http://directory.google.com/Top/Regional/Europe/United_Kingdom/Arts_and_Entertainment/Libraries/

- Thomas Register: this is the online version of the big green
"ThomCat" catalogs you can find at most libraries. "The most
comprehensive online resource for finding companies and products
manufactured in North America"

"hot food boxes"
http://www.thomasregister.com/

You could consider the Jack the Ripper era and Google search London's
museums or a film props company. The phrase "Cries of London" also
comes to my mind. These were the shouted calls of street-vendors
during the 18th & 19th centuries.
You could also seek help from the offices of Ken Livingstone - Mayor
of London. They are apparently very cooperative.