I recently bought a car which came with "road-hugging" 168mph-rated
Pirelli P8000 tires. Great performance tires, unfortunatelly the resulting
ride quality is not unlike riding on bare rims. Every crack on the asphalt,
and at low speed even the tire's own surface patterns can be heard and felt.

I'd like to replace them with comfortable, quiet, smooth tires. The car
will never be driven over 80mph for sustained periods, or 90mph for very
short periods (e.g. passing). It will occasionally be driven in rain and
on plowed/salted roads, but never on packed or fresh snow. Braking and
evasive maneuvering (ie. cornering) performance are important only to
the extent required for normal street driving, not for racing.
Cost, thread wear, and rolling resistance should be considered only as
tie-breakers, not critical factors. 

Problem #1 is I have not found any 16-inch (P225/50) tires claiming
to be "touring" tires. Problem #2 is that almost every performance tire 
description out there, from manufacturers and tire retailers, boasts 
"performance with uncompromised ride quality", so they cannot be trusted.

Please solve my problem!

Can I keep the 16-inch wheels and still find quiet tires?

Thank you.

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Clarification of Question by atr-ga on 20 Sep 2003 10:29 PDT

Here are some options. I wonder how they rate. Again, I don't know
that I can
trust the descriptions on the website:
http://www.discounttire.com/dtc/findTireProducts.do?step=products&productType=TIRE&sortOrder=Price&crossSection=225&aspectRatio=50&tireRimSize=16&plusSize=OE

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Clarification of Question by atr-ga on 20 Sep 2003 10:30 PDT

argh never mind. The link doesn't paste right.

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Request for Question Clarification by aht-ga on 20 Sep 2003 12:13 PDT

In addition to sublime1-ga's comment, and request for information
about the exact application (make/model/year of vehicle), please let
us know whether you will be the only driver, and please also confirm
the implied requirement that the tires be all-season tires (as you
mention several different types of environments in your question).

I happen to use that same tire size on my vehicle, and know that the
majority of tire options available are geared towards the performance
end of the spectrum as the list of cars that use this size include the
BMW 3-series, some Mustangs and Camaros, and assorted other sporty
cars. Knowing the exact make/model of vehicle will be helpful in
giving you the proper advice and direction. The liability associated
with putting an S-rated tire on a vehicle capable of exceeding the
associated speed is yours, and yours alone, but many tire shops will
refuse to perform the installation regardless.

Thanks, and hope we can help,

aht-ga

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Clarification of Question by atr-ga on 20 Sep 2003 15:14 PDT

The car is a 1998 BMW 328is, and it may be occasionally be driven
by one person other than myself (why would that matter?).

The "all-season" feature is very confusing. I'm not sure if I need it.
Let me try to break that down a little further:

- If it rains, I would like to be able to drive, understanding that
I will have to drive more carefully. If my tires are not rated "all
season", does that mean I am grounded on wet days and should not
venture out at all?

- It does get cold where I live (Chicago). If my tires are not "all
season," are they going to crack and blow up on a cold day? Am I going
to lose traction on a DRY cold day?

- If there is snow on the road, I don't mind pulling over and waiting
for the slowplow to come by and remove it. Based on personal experience
living in the area, this would be a very rare occurrence. So, I do not
require any kind of "snow" capability. Do I need to have "all season"
tires in order to drive on a road where all the snow has been removed
by application of plow and salt?

Thanks!!

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Clarification of Question by atr-ga on 20 Sep 2003 15:37 PDT

By the way (not part of the question, but give your opinion if you
have one on this), I'm puzzled by the "responsiveness" claims on
performance tires. I have never driven a car which does not turn
left when I rotate the steering wheel to the left, or turn right
when I turn it to the right. I don't understand what the fuss is
about. 

Bonus Question: How fast do I need to be driving around a street
corner in order to start feeling the "responsiveness" differences
between tires?

atr...

Given the specifics of the year, make and model of your car,
I went to the Michelin site to see what they recommended.
Their only option was the Michelin Pilot® Primacy™:
http://www.michelinman.com/catalog/tires/MichelinPilotPrimacy.html

...which has a Michelin quietness rating of 7. I then went to
Epinions.com for a summary of the Michelin Pilot Primacy, and
there were no reviews of this tire.

I then did a Google search for the Michelin Pilot Primacy,
and found a review on TireRack.com which indicated that it
was relatively high on the list of comparable tires, but
relatively low in 'noise comfort':
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=Pilot+Primacy

Following the link to 'Compare This Tire to Other Grand Touring
Summer Tires', I came to the following page, which indicates
That the Conti Touring Contact CV95, which I mentioned in my
comment, has the highest rating in 'noise comfort' and 'ride
comfort' of the tires listed - above the Michelin Primacy,
the Michelin Pilot HX MXM, and the Kumho ECSTA KH11,
which had the highest overall score:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/gt.jsp

Note: 'Grand Touring Summer Tire' means that this tire
fits your definition of not being faced with snow on a
regular basis, but being suitable for rainy or dry
driving conditions.

Here's the survey page for the Conti Touring Contact CV95:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=ContiTouringContact+CV95

Here's the survey page for the Kumho ECSTA KH11:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=ECSTA+KH11

Here's the Continental page for the Conti Touring Contact CV95:
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/automobile/themes/pc_tyres/touring/touring_contact_as/benefit_en.html

Here's the Kumho page for the ECSTA KH11:
http://www.kumhousa.com/Products/PtnDetails.asp?mainCatID=1&PTNID=KH-11&refAction=PtnDetail

Notice that the last page lists the following as the competition
for the Kumho ECSTA KH11:

Michelin Primacy
Dunlop SP9000
Goodyear Eagle GS-D
Continental ContiSport Contact
Yokohama ES100
Bridgestone Potenza RE020

What I found strange is that, if you check the link for 
available sizes for the Conti Touring Contact CV95, your
size is not listed:
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/automobile/themes/pc_tyres/touring/touring_contact_as/dimension_en.html

...whereas, if you fill in the tire
size boxes at http://www.tiresavings.com/
the Conti Touring Contact CV95 lists your size as
available for $93.00: 5689120	P225/50HR16.
Perhaps an email to TireSavings.com, via this page:
http://www.tiresavings.com/contact.php
will clear this up.

The information I have located makes it clear to me
that the quietest tire is the Conti Touring Contact CV95,
assuming that it *is* actually available in your size,
and the overall best tire is the Kumho ECSTA KH11.


As for 'responsiveness', the Kumho ECSTA KH11 is rated
highest, and the Conti Touring Contact CV95 is rated 
third, which is in keeping with its lower noise rating:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/gt.jsp

As to what all the fuss is about, in relation to 
responsiveness, it has to do with how well the 
car responds to a tight or fast turn. This can
be felt in regular right-angle turns at speeds
as low as 25-40mph. If the tire is less than
adequately responsive, you will experience what
is known as 'understeer', in which you will feel
that the front tires are not gripping the road
adequately, and that you will not be able to 
complete a turn without drifting to the outside.
More here:
http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/steering.html


Please do not rate this answer until you are satisfied that
the answer cannot be improved upon by means of a dialog
established through the "Request for Clarification" process.

sublime1-ga


Searches done, via Google:

michelin tires
://www.google.com/search?q=michelin+tires

Michelin Pilot Primacy
://www.google.com/search?q=Michelin+Pilot+Primacy

Kumho ECSTA KH11
://www.google.com/search?q=Kumho+ECSTA+KH11

understeer
://www.google.com/search?q=understeer

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Request for Answer Clarification by atr-ga on 22 Sep 2003 08:51 PDT

Ok I'm waiting for tiresavings to call me back and confirm if the
tire exists...

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Request for Answer Clarification by atr-ga on 22 Sep 2003 09:45 PDT

I talked to a CSR from tiresavings, apparently the one they sell
which has a P225/50 size is a CH95 and not a CV95. After re-visiting
the Continental site I found it:
http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/us/en/continental/automobile/themes/pc_tyres/performance/conti_touring_contact_ctchcv95/dimension_en.html

Would you please clarify something on the handling/responsiveness. I
did
some testing while driving my car  and realized I would be essentially
very unconfortable taking a street corner at more than 20mph.
Is it actually possible to take a corner at 40mph, and wouldn't this
require some fancy techniques, like precise throttle application and
skidding on all 4 wheels?

I just want to understand what exactly I'm sacrificing when getting
a tire with "poor handling and responsiveness" such as the CH95.
Thanks.

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Clarification of Answer by sublime1-ga on 22 Sep 2003 19:10 PDT

atr...

You ask:
"Is it actually possible to take a corner at 40mph, and wouldn't this
require some fancy techniques, like precise throttle application and 
skidding on all 4 wheels?"

Yes, it would require some racing technique, such as applying the
emergency brake to isolate the rear brakes and cause the rear to 
skid while the front continues turning. This is something which is
facilitated by the specialized tread on the highest performance
tires which can be installed on your car. At normal turn speeds,
only a rather 'normal' tire will cause significant understeer,


When you speak of "getting a tire with "poor handling and 
responsiveness" such as the CH95, please realize that this
is a relative concept. While the handling and responsiveness
of the CH95 may be lower than that of a higher-rated tire
such as the Kumho ECSTA KH11, it is still going to be 
considerably better than an 'average' tire. The difference
between the CV and the CH has more to do with the tire's
ability to maintain integrity and responsiveness at high speed:

"T = up to 118 mph; H = up to 130 mph; V = up to 149 mph"
(From the page you cited)

I doubt that you would be able to feel much difference at
the low speeds involved in a normal turn. You are merely
limiting your high-speed safe-handling capability to 130mph
rather than 149mph.

The ratings for the CV95, from the page TireRack survey
I cited in my answer, were:

Dry    Wet     Hydro   Snow  Cornering Steering  Ride   Noise  Tread
Tract  Tract   Resist  Tract Stability Response Comfort Comfort Wear
8.1  	7.7  	7.5  	N/A  	7.5  	7.5  	8.3  	8  	7
The ratings for the CH95, from a TireRack survey, are:
7.8  	7.2  	7  	5.9  	7  	7  	7.4  	6.6  	5.6
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=ContiTouringContact+CH95

While traction, cornering and steering are close enough, the
area where the CH95 really fails you is 'noise comfort' and 'wear'.
Since your question dealt with how much you could feel the road,
which is measured by the 'ride comfort' rating, you may find that
this tire does provide as much of a cushion as you like, with its
rating of 7.4. The 'noise comfort' rating indicates this will be
a relatively noisy tire on a concrete highway at legal speeds
(n the newer, 'rubberized asphalt' roads, it won't matter).
The 'tread wear' rating indicates that it won't last as long as
a more expensive tire, yet it still rates higher in these areas
than a Michelin Pilot Primacy. Additionally, all the ratings fall
in the 'excellent' rating level, except 'snow traction', which is
irrelevant to you, and 'tread wear'. Both these figures are still
considered 'good'. None of the ratings are only 'fair' or 
'unacceptable':
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=ContiTouringContact+CH95

I hope that clarifies things satisfactorily. Please don't 
hesitate to ask if you need to know more about something.

sublime1-ga

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Clarification of Answer by sublime1-ga on 22 Sep 2003 19:16 PDT

Oops...
Sorry...the table data didn't survive formatting on this page,
but you can open the webpages and see the data more clearly.

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Clarification of Answer by sublime1-ga on 22 Sep 2003 19:44 PDT

Oh, and P.S.

If you're comfortable spending more than $87/tire, here's another
option. The tires we've been looking at have been in the 'Grand
Touring - Summer' category. If you look in the 'Grand Touring - 
All Season' section, you'll find a 'V-rated' (up to 149mph) tire
by Bridgestone that has much higher ratings than the CH-95. The
Turanza LS-V cost $154 apeice for a 225/50/VR16.

The ratings page (2nd on the list!):
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/gtas.jsp

The pricing page:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp?make=Bridgestone&model=Turanza+LS-H%2CTuranza+LS-V%2CTuranza+LS-Z

Best regards...

sublime1-ga

Thanks.

atr...

Go to:
http://www.tiresavings.com/

...and plug in 225 - 50 - 16 into the tire size boxes.

The resulting page may help you or other researchers get started.
It's difficult to find side-by-side 'quietness' comparisons,
and the ratings by the company may not match the ratings by
consumers on, e.g., epinions.com. It may also help researchers
to know the year, make and model of your vehicle. Continental
lists two 'touring' tires on the page, which are rated 4 stars
by consumers on epinions.com. I'm not sure what the difference
is between the 'Conti Touring Contact CH95' and the 'Touring
CH95 360 A/A'.

sublime1-ga

For what it is worth, the Kumhos may be the noisiest tire I've ever
put on (and since replaced with Sumitomos) on my car.  I strongly
recommend using tirerack as a guide if you are willing to do the work
are read through the user feedback pages.

GO to tire rack and look up your size, then search for dunlops only. 
Find the Dunlop SP Sport A2, this tire is on my mitsu eclipse 97',
good grip in wet and dry, handle bumps without jarring and isnt noisy
unless at the limit where it communicates what it is doing.  Its got
the ability to handle slush great and light snow fairly well, compared
with my old Bridgestones the wet traction difference was much better
and isnt wearing out.  These are $95 a piece from tire rack!  Also
responsiveness is the feeling of delay from when you turn the wheel
and the tire starts to load up and turn.  If you turn the wheel and
the car kind of floats into the initial bite then its not responsive,
if it turns hard and quick right when you turn its responsive.  You'll
normally get less response with more comfort but its not that
noticeable in street driving.