I'm looking for a quote from Sun Tzu.  This is probably from the "Art
of War", but not necesarily.  The quote is something like "It's better
not to fight and (still) win."  I'm looking for a verification of the
quote, of if I have the wrong quote, what the quote is.  Note I've
found a number of similar lines from the "Art of War" that are not
right. E.g. "Do not challenge unless you have the means to win" and
"Do not fight unless you are determined to win".  I'm sure there are
other similar but different quotes in the book.

$2 tip for web links to information about this particular quote.  E.g.
discussion or description of it, history of it, alternative
translations, etc.  Has to be about the quote, not general info about
Sun Tzu or the book.

Another $2 tip for a reliable link to the original Chinese text for
the quote.  Need the text for the quote for the quote only.  Can't be
a reference to the whole book in Chinese (or even a paragraph or
chapter).

Greetings Thenerd,
I believe the passage is found in Sun Tzu's Art of War, Chapter 3,
Planning Attacks. Here is the text I found from one website with a
free translation posted:

"Generally in warfare, keeping a nation intact is best, destroying a
nation second best;
keeping an army intact is best, destroying an army second best;
keeping a battalion intact is best, destroying a battalion second
best;
keeping a company intact is best, destroying a company second best;
keeping a squad intact is best, destroying a squad second best. 
Therefore, to gain a hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the
highest excellence;
to subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of
excellence. "
Sonshi.com - Sun Tzu the Art of War Site 
http://www.sonshi.com/sun3.html
- A new translation of Sun Tzu's work, I think. The questions marks
after each verse are links to the message board topic specifically
related to the verse.

According to the classic Lionel Giles Translation, Chapter 3, Attack
by Stratagem:

"1. Sun Tzu said:  In the practical art of war, the best
    thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact;
    to shatter and destroy it is not so good.  So, too, it is
    better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it,
    to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire
    than to destroy them.

2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles
    is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists
    in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

[skipped some text]

6. Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's
    troops without any fighting; he captures their cities
    without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom
    without lengthy operations in the field.

7. With his forces intact he will dispute the mastery
    of the Empire, and thus, without losing a man, his triumph
    will be complete.  This is the method of attacking by stratagem."

Art of War by Sun Tzu: Lionel Giles Translation
http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html


I believe the meaning of Sun Tzu in this passage is that capturing an
enemy and making him part of your forces is much better than
destroying him because your own forces are bolstered. No energy is
wasted in fighting.

Perhaps the quote that means something like "Do not challenge unless
you have the means to win" and "Do not fight unless you are determined
to win" would be something in Chapter 1 of the Art of War" would be
the one below:

"Attack where they are not prepared, go out to where they do not
expect.
This specialized warfare leads to victory, and may not be transmitted
beforehand.
Before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will win,
because many calculations were made;
before doing battle, in the temple one calculates and will not win,
because few calculations were made;
many calculations, victory, few calculations, no victory, then how
much less so when no calculations?
By means of these, I can observe them, beholding victory or defeat!"
http://www.sonshi.com/sun1.html


or perhaps this, from the last part of Chapter Three:
" One who knows the enemy and knows himself will not be in danger in a
hundred battles. ?
One who does not know the enemy but knows himself will sometimes win,
sometimes lose.
One who does not know the enemy and does not know himself will be in
danger in every battle."


Another probably similar passage is in Chapter Eight:

"There are routes not to be taken;
there are armies not to be attacked;
there are walled cities not to be besieged;
there are grounds not to be penetrated;
there are commands not to be obeyed."
http://www.sonshi.com/sun8.html

Also, maybe Chapter 2: 

"Killing the enemy is a matter of arousing anger in men;
taking the enemy's wealth is a matter of reward.
Therefore, in chariot battles, reward the first to capture at least
ten chariots.
Replace the enemy's flags and standards with our own.
Mix the captured chariots with our own, treat the captured soldiers
well.
This is called defeating the enemy and increasing our strength."
http://www.sonshi.com/sun2.html


This one has the whole Art of War Text with annotations mentioning
some Chinese characters of the original:
Sun Tzu, The Art of War at Bowdoin College website
http://academic.bowdoin.edu/suntzu/textmenu.html
- This is the closest I could get to a copy of the work that has
per-verse original Chinese alongside. I could not find any translation
with the Chinese version annotated under each verse. I think only a
print copy would have the original Chinese included in a side-by-side
manner.


In case you might be interested in the complete original Chinese text,
here it is one page:
Art of War in Chinese
http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi.html

Google search terms to look for online text:
sun tzu art war
sun tzu art war chinese text

I hope this has been a helpful answer. If you need anything else, or
have a problem with the answer, do please post a Request for
Clarification and I shall respond as soon as I can. Thank you.

---

Request for Answer Clarification by thenerd-ga on 22 Sep 2003 20:45 PDT

Thanks!  I think what I was looking for was "Therefore, to gain a
hundred victories in a hundred battles is not the highest excellence;
to subjugate the enemy's army without doing battle is the highest of
excellence."

Do you have any information of the different translations of the book?
 Who translated, when, etc.?  If not, I will still consider this well
answered.

---

Clarification of Answer by techtor-ga on 22 Sep 2003 23:33 PDT

The Lionel Giles translation was published in 1910 and Samuel
Griffith's was first published in 1963.

Here is a page describing listing some other translations of Sun Tzu's
work:
http://www.genordell.com/stores/maison/SunTzu.htm
- Denma Group translation, 2001
- Roger Ames translation, 1993
- Thomas Cleary translation, 1988

Let me give you pages where you can find links to different
translations:

Google Directory - Sun Tzu
http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Literature/World_Literature/Chinese/Sun_Tzu/

Lists to other Sun Tzu sources
http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/gthursby/taoism/suntzu.htm

Here's a Sun Tzu Version translated by Ralph Sawyer, and it must be a
fairly recent work (looks like 1994)
http://www.perseusbooksgroup.com/perseus-cgi-bin/display/0-8133-1951-X

Here's another site which shows the Chinese text of Sun Tzu, but it
has a Chinese character study in the right column:
http://zhongwen.com/bingfa.htm

I may have not listed all translations, as there might be as many
translations of Sun Tzu's work as the Bible. More might come up in the
coming years. However, it's a short and simple text, so I doubt it
will have the same problems as the Bible in preserving meaning.

Hope that helps.

Thanks!

I give you my thanks in turn for the high rating and good tip!