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Q: Celtic religion ( No Answer,   6 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Celtic religion
Category: Relationships and Society > Religion
Asked by: tlvk-ga
List Price: $5.00
Posted: 23 Sep 2003 23:00 PDT
Expires: 23 Oct 2003 23:00 PDT
Question ID: 259637
What do we know about traditional Celtic religion?
(reputable sources only please)

Request for Question Clarification by digsalot-ga on 24 Sep 2003 01:37 PDT
Hi there

Historically the Celtic peoples were distributed very widely across
Europe and Celtic religion, just as other ancient faiths, varied from
region to region.

From which region do want the information?

cheers
digs

Clarification of Question by tlvk-ga on 25 Sep 2003 02:17 PDT
My research indicates they where united across the whole of Europe by
the Druids. I'am searching for the underlying themes about the Celts,
not so much specific details.

Request for Question Clarification by digsalot-ga on 25 Sep 2003 04:05 PDT
Hello there

I see we are going to have to start at the beginning with this one. 
First of all, not all peoples who today claim to be Celts are, and
many who were no longer make the claim, or even know they were. 
Confusing?

We will try to straighten that out here in this clarification request.

Now then, we need to determine just who the Celts were.  You may find
some surprises.  In fact, as a clarification request, this may even
turn into an essay.

The long held view of what "Celticity" was, and one that is still
promoted by New Agers and others in spite of archaeological and
historical evidence demonstrating otherwise, is that the Celts were
migrants from an Iron Age home somewhere in Central Europe and later
occupied much of Continental Europe and the British Isles.  That they
shared a common heritage of Celtic language and culture and it is the
similarities which are most important.  It is claimed that all of
these people spoke languages which were related, that they were
non-literate and shared common features of social organization and a
basic common Druidic religious belief.

As an Egyptologist, I can't even make that broad a claim for the
peoples who just lived along the River Nile and it was certainly not
the case with the people later known as Celts.

Outside of the New Agers wishful thinking, actual evidence about
Druids and druidism is sparse enough to be consistent with the concept
that the cult may have been confined to the British Isles, parts of
Gaul, and was unknown to the vast majority of Continental Celts.

Now we get to the point that there is really no common underlying
theme within Celtic civilizations at all.  Those societies which have
been labeled Celtic had a much greater variety of social and political
organizations across Europe than most people give them credit for. 
The Celts of the western parts of Britain, for example, may have had
no well defined nobility or warrior class while the Aedui of Gaul were
literate, had cities, and a very elaborate constitutional government.

Archaeology and increasingly accurate examinations of what is called
"Celtic History" is demonstrating that the whole edifice is little
more than a house of cards based on New Age fantasy, wishful thinking
and romantic nationalism, resting on a now discredited scholarly
foundation.

A great deal of what is accepted as Celtic history is modern myth, a
creation of the 18th century as a basis for many modern nationalisms
such as French or English, even some German, Austrian, etc.  It seems
much of Europe wants its finger somewhere in the Celtic pie.

It is certain that the inhabitants of ancient Europe had a hierarchy
of identies, just as we do today.  I am a native Ohioan, was an
adopted Nevadan and Californian, a semi-permanent resident of Egypt,
an American and a North American.  The level I choose to identify with
depends on who I am talking to.

Before the Romans came, a person living in the British Isles would
have thought of their first loyalty being to their family and clan,
then to their tribal confederation.  It is highly improbable they
thought of themselves even as British or Irish.  At least not till
Rome appeared and changed their world forever.
 
They hardly thought of themselves as sharing much of an identity with
the gauls and they certainly didn't call themselves "Celts."  It may
be useful today to 'sometimes' think of them as Celts in the loose
sense of similar languages and arts, but this level is not the most
useful for trying to establish some kind of common religion among
them.  It is too loose, as in "Germanic," "Latin," or even "European."

The concept of a uniting Druidism is a modern product of Irish and
English nationalism in an attempt to lay claim to a relationship with
the "Celts" of Gaul and elswehere in Europe.  The archaeology
supporting this claim is largely late 19th century and early 20th
century scholarship which has since been discredited as more
contemporary archaeologists don't have the nationalistic pressures
which pre-determine how they will publish their finds.  I repeat, the
vast majority of Continental Celts had never heard of Druidism.

The concept that the Scots, Welsh, Irish and other groups in the
British Isles are "Celtic" evolved during the 18th and 19th centuries
and are not so much a rediscovery of a forgotten past as it is a
modern invention imposed on the past.

So, I need to go back to my original clarification request.  If you
want an accurate answer about ancient "traditional" Celtic religion, I
need to know the region.

I need to know if you can accept an answer along those lines.  If you
are looking for an answer supporting a Druidic Unification theory,
then I cannot in good faith provide it.

Cheers
digs

Clarification of Question by tlvk-ga on 26 Sep 2003 03:34 PDT
Hi 
I would like access the archeological proof of the 'celtic' religions
existance within the entire inhabitance area of Europe. (the mainland,
Briton, Ireland ect.)  I also would like credible sources of the
theriors arising from these finds.  I am trying to understand the
celtic religion and common beliefs as deeply as possiable without
limiting my search one any one area.  Could you also provide a
credible source for the theroy of Druids bieng an isolated cult and
that the culture was quite seperated rather than the united
civilization my research has suggested.
I am fully aware of the problems of correctly identifing 'celtic'
people, so I do not need any further info on this.

Request for Question Clarification by digsalot-ga on 28 Sep 2003 05:36 PDT
One of the many reasons this may very well be difficult to answer to
your satisfaction is the extreme bitterness and division the subject
is causing.  I would have no idea as to what sources you would accept
considering the rancour among the experts themselves.

A review of the opening of a show about the Celts at the British
Museum may give you some idea.

British Museum Exhibit Provokes Controversy over Celtic History _ "the
'Ancient Celts' were not so much discovered, as gradually invented by
generations of scholars." On the other side there are academics who
argue that the Celts are the ancestors of the modern Irish, Scots,
Welsh and Bretons, and that attempts to deny this are racist. The
dispute has become so bitter and personal that academics writing in
learned journals have even felt called upon to explain the ethnic
origins of their grandmothers." - FromWSWS

hlabadie-ga's comments hit it right on the mark.  The amount of
evidence available creats a very subjective environment rather than an
objective one.

Even the section about ancient Celtic civilizations on my website
carries a disclaimer regarding the validity of information published
from whatever the source, even universities.  And it is the only topic
on my site that needs to.

I could probably give you an answer that would support every thing you
want and I could give you an answer that doesn't - - - and according
to some expert or other, either would be right.

I don't think you came here to spend your money on conjecture and I
hope you appreciate that I won't provide such.

Celts have become the most controversial and heated topic among
historians and archaeologists going right now and the subject is an
extremely hot coal to try and pick up.

If another researcher feels they have the answer, feel free to post
it, but I can't without a lot more detail and specific location in the
question.

You ask - "Could you also provide a credible source for the theroy of
Druids bieng an isolated cult and that the culture was quite seperated
rather than the united civilization my research has suggested."

Yes I could - and I also can provide credible sources for the other
side of the question.  The key word is "credible" and whether you
would accept them as "credible" or not.

For a GA researcher, where you would stand on such an answer would be
a guessing game.  I don't want to take your money just for making
guesses.

I wish you the best in your research.  You have taken on an enormous
topic and one that is so controversial it is even effecting European
politics.

digs
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Celtic religion
From: hlabadie-ga on 25 Sep 2003 07:23 PDT
 
Book VI of Commentaries on the Gallic War by Julius Caesar contains an
account of what he had learned about the Druids and their religious
practices during his tenure as Pro-Consul in Gaul. It is the most
authentic description of the ancient Druidic order, albeit filtered
through the Roman understanding of the subject. Other than that, there
are a few Gallic inscriptions to deities.

hlabadie-ga
Subject: Re: Celtic religion
From: tlvk-ga on 26 Sep 2003 03:39 PDT
 
Hi hlabadie-ga
Do you know where I could find this account?  The actual Book is not
necessary - but a credable commentary or editorial would be great.
Subject: Re: Celtic religion
From: hlabadie-ga on 26 Sep 2003 04:49 PDT
 
The text of and explanatory notes for Caesar's Gallic War can be found
at the Perseus Project's site.

C, Julius Caesar, Gallic War
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Caes.+Gal.+1.1

The passages relating to the Druids begins at

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Caes.+Gal.+6.13

There is also a discussion of the mistletoe as used by the Druids in
Pliny's Natural History, Book XVI.249. I can look for that, too, if
you wish.

hlabadie-ga
Subject: Re: Celtic religion
From: hlabadie-ga on 26 Sep 2003 07:36 PDT
 
British Archaeology, no 39, November 1998
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba39/ba39int.html

"At the time of the Gallic War, Julius Caesar described the Druids as
a religious élite responsible for judicial issues and education.
(Gallic War 6.13-14). This is not, however, the image that sticks in
our minds. Most of us think of the Druids as bearded mystics with a
penchant for mistletoe. We can trace this portrait back to numerous
1st century writers, including Pliny, Lucan and Mela. Pliny's Natural
History (XVI 249) contains a famous description of the Gallic Druids:

The Druids - for so their magicians are called - hold nothing more
sacred than the mistletoe and the tree that bears it . . . They call
the mistletoe by a name meaning, in their language, the all-healing.
Having made preparation for sacrifice, and a banquet beneath the
trees, they bring thither two white bulls, whose horns are bound then
for the first time. Clad in a white robe, the priest ascends the tree
and cuts the mistletoe with a gold sickle, and it is received by
others in a white cloak. Then they kill the victims, praying that the
god will render this gift of his propitious to those to whom he has
granted it."

hlabadie-ga
Subject: Re: Celtic religion
From: hlabadie-ga on 26 Sep 2003 13:44 PDT
 
This is merely an observation. I think that you are likely to find
that the archaeological evidence for Druidism is nil, which is as
would be expected. It was  not an aspect of Celtic culture that
produced material artifacts, but rather a system of knowledge that was
transmitted orally. The most that you are likely to discover are
descriptions from the ancient authors already mentioned, Caesar,
Pliny, and Tacitus. AFter them, the surviving Bardic tradition as
preserved in the Middle Ages in volumes such as the Book of Ballymote
would come closest to revealing the nature of Druidic tradition.

With respect to Celtic Religion, the matter is slightly different.
Here the archaeology will consist of epigraphic evidence primarily,
inscriptions to various gods, of which there were thousands, mostly
local, and little else. There were a few deities that were common --
Belenus, Lug, Beda -- but they were very few.

In other words, there are two aspects to the question, and very little
in the way of physical evidence for either.

hlabadie-ga
Subject: Re: Celtic religion
From: hlabadie-ga on 11 Oct 2003 12:01 PDT
 
Here is what one French archaeologist has to say on the subject (in French).

Les dieux de nos ancêtres gaulois
http://ds.unil.ch/spul/allez_savoir/as25/pages/as25_archeologie.html

hlabadie-ga

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