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Q: Physics ( Answered,   5 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Physics
Category: Science
Asked by: drbaker-ga
List Price: $20.00
Posted: 07 Oct 2003 18:07 PDT
Expires: 06 Nov 2003 17:07 PST
Question ID: 264061
How rapidly does an electonic signal move through a conductor? That
is, if a current is impressed on one end of a conductor, then how
rapidly does it appear at the other end or what is the electron
mobility speed?
Answer  
Subject: Re: Physics
Answered By: sublime1-ga on 08 Oct 2003 01:02 PDT
 
drbaker...

Without realizing it, you've actually asked two questions,
since, though it is not commonly known, the speed of 
transmission of an electrical signal through a conductor
is actually quite different than the speed of an electron
through the wire.

As we shall see, you can actually walk faster than an electron
moves through a conductor! Nonetheless, the signal moves at
close to the speed of light.

To begin with, let's stop by the Naval Electricity & Electronics
Training (NEETS) module on the Tpub site:
http://www.tpub.com/neets/

Chapter 1 has a page on electric current which first notes that
electrons are always in random motion, even when there is no
voltage applied, and this motion is faster in a conductor, such
as copper, than in a non-conductor. This is called 'random drift'.

It then points out that this random motion becomes directed when
a voltage is applied to a conductor, resulting in 'directed drift'.
Figure 1-26 illustrates how, though the electron speed is slow,
the effect of this drift is transmitted essentially instantaneously.

"The directed movement of the electrons occurs at a relatively
 low VELOCITY (rate of motion in a particular direction). The
 effect of this directed movement, however, is felt almost
 instantaneously, as explained by the use of figure 1-26. 
 [.../...]
 Though an individual electron moves quite slowly through the
 conductor, the effect of a directed drift occurs almost
 instantaneously...This action takes place at approximately the
 speed a light (186,000 miles Per Second)." More on the page:
http://www.tpub.com/neets/book1/chapter1/1n.htm


Now, keeping in mind that the above is a discussion of the 
'theory' of electrical current, let's move on to the specifics
which can only be provided by practical field experience.

Our first hosts:
"Simula Research Laboratory (Simula) was established in January
 2001, through a resolution of the Norwegian Parliament. Simula
 is named after the world's first object-oriented programming
 language, Simula, which was invented and developed more than
 thirty years ago by the award-winning Norwegian pioneers
 Kristen Nygaard and Ole Johan Dahl."
http://www.simula.no/

In a discussion of the Resilient Packet Ring, being developed
by the company, it is noted:

"The traffic stations along the RPR ring must make automatic
 decisions with remarkable speed. The data packages move at
 the speed of electrical current, which is about two thirds
 the speed of light or about 200.000 km per second."
http://www.simula.no/project_one.php?project_id=3

As we shall see, 66% of the speed of light is a good average
figure for the transmission of data by way of electrical
current.


Our next host is the Mogami wire and cable company of Japan.
An engineer on their site has presented some educational
materials in the form of puzzles, preceded by some very
detailed information. On a page which discusses the subject
'Mystery of electric current - Speed of electricity', we
find the following data, echoing the NEETS module, but 
considerably more detailed:

"...the most common material for a conductor of electric wires
 is copper and the electron density in 1m^3 is 8.5e28. For
 example in copper wire, of which length is 1m and the outside
 diameter is 0.5mm, there are 1.7e22 free electrons..."

"...free electrons in a copper wire move to random directions
 with the speed of 1.3e6m/s even in the case of no electric
 current, which means it is not in electric field..."
Remember 'random drift'?

Now for the speed of electrons under charge:

"When voltage is put on both sides of a conductor, free
 electrons increase the speed in proportion to the electric
 field and by lattice oscillation, lattice defect, and
 collision with impurities, they will be scattered to
 different directions from the electric field and lose the
 speed to the direction of the electric field. Therefore
 it doesn't increase the speed infinitely and it will keep
 certain average velocity. That means collision functions
 as a kind of friction."

"As for copper, the time interval between collisions is
 5.26e-45 seconds and average drift velocity is
 4.62e-3  (m/s) / (v/m)."

"It means that when 1V voltage is put on both ends of 1m
 long copper wire, the velocity of free electrons to length
 direction is 4.62 mm/s. It seems amazingly slow but since
 electric charge of electrons is -1.6e-19c, 12.6A electric
 current flows in the 0.5mm copper wire with this speed."

and, finally:

"...let's say you put 50mV differential voltage, which is
 almost a standard limit, on 100m of '10Base-T' cable,
 which is commonly used for LAN wiring. The electric field
 that is put on a conductor is 0.25mV/m. Average moving
 velocity of free electrons is only 1.15m per second,
 which is 4.1km per hour, and it's about the same as walking
 speed of human."
http://www.mogami.com/e/puzzle/pzl-05.html

He then asks how this can be so when we know that telephone
and LAN wiring transmit information faster than an airplane
can fly. This is his 'puzzle' question. But we already know
the answer to that, right?


Our last host is Larry Spring, from the TeslaTech website.
On the following page, in entry 68, he notes that he has
independently verified the following, in 1954:

"I verified the speed of electrical current in television lead
 line at from 66% to 95Z[%] the speed of light. 66% for coax
 cable. 75% for ribbon lead. 90% for ladder lead line."


So, as you can see, the actual speed of transmission will vary
with the type of wiring, which includes many variables. The
conductivity of the metal wiring, the insulation, the thickness
of the wire will all play a part. Speaking as an ex-Navy
Electronics Technician, I will tell you another secret taught
in Navy training: electrons travel pedominantly on the outside
of the wire. Therefore, the thicker the wire, the better the
current flow. This is why you will see that high-end speaker
wires, e.g., are amazingly thick, even though they handle
little current!

Another factor is temperature. The concept of superconductivity
states that, when the metal conductor comprising a circuit can be
brought to its 'transition temperature' (close to absolute zero),
the electrons will flow through metal with essentially no resistance
from the collisions with other electrons which impede electron
flow in a 'normal' circuit. More here, from Superconductors.org:
http://superconductors.org/oxtheory.htm

If you're looking for a working figure for copper wire at
room temperature, I'd suggest using 66% of the speed of light,
or about 200 km per second.


Please do not rate this answer until you are satisfied that  
the answer cannot be improved upon by means of a dialog  
established through the "Request for Clarification" process. 
 
sublime1-ga


Searches done, via Google:

"speed of electrical current"
://www.google.com/search?q=%22speed+of+electrical+current%22

theory of superconductivity
://www.google.com/search?q=theory+of+superconductivity

Clarification of Answer by sublime1-ga on 08 Oct 2003 11:54 PDT
I wanted to acknowledge trueparent-ga's comment as correct.
I was basing my summary statement on the citation from the
Simula Research Lab, which used European notation in saying:

"two thirds the speed of light or about 200.000 km per second."

This translates to '200,000 km per second'. In my early-morning
haze, I didn't notice this, and dropped the zeros after the
decimal point. Silly researcher!

Thanks very much for the correction, trueparent!

Request for Answer Clarification by drbaker-ga on 08 Oct 2003 12:43 PDT
Interesting answers, but I would like a definitive journal-article
reference for the "drift velocity" or "drift speed" of electrons as
they are "pushed" from one end of a wire to the other end; that is,the
speed of a "curent" pulse impressed on one end of a wire and measured
at the other end, recognizing that the "current" pulse is not composed
of the same elecrons as it progresses down the wire. Also I'd like a
journal reference for the "electron migration speed" through a
semiconductor such as a transistor. Thank you

Clarification of Answer by sublime1-ga on 08 Oct 2003 16:20 PDT
drbaker...

Let me address your Request for Clarification point by point.

"I would like a definitive journal-article reference for the
 'drift velocity' or 'drift speed' of electrons as they are
 'pushed' from one end of a wire to the other end..."

As noted in my answer, once a voltage is applied to the
conductor, 'random drift' is replaced by 'directed drift'
of the electrons, which will vary depending on the voltage
applied, the quantity of free electrons in the conducting
material, the thickness of the wire, and the resultant
'friction' imposed by collisions with other free electrons:

"When voltage is put on both sides of a conductor, free 
 electrons increase the speed in proportion to the electric 
 field and by lattice oscillation, lattice defect, and 
 collision with impurities, they will be scattered to 
 different directions from the electric field and lose the 
 speed to the direction of the electric field. Therefore 
 it doesn't increase the speed infinitely and it will keep 
 certain average velocity. That means collision functions 
 as a kind of friction."

The Mogami cable and wire engineer then clarifies by example
how the speed of this 'directed drift' will vary with the
voltage applied, and the type of wiring used:

"...when 1V voltage is put on both ends of 1m long copper
 wire, the velocity of free electrons to length direction
 is 4.62 mm/s."

On the other hand, when using "50mV differential voltage...
on 100m of '10Base-T' cable":

"Average moving velocity of free electrons is only 1.15m
 per second, which is 4.1km per hour"


You then add:

"...that is, the speed of a 'current' pulse impressed on one
 end of a wire and measured at the other end, recognizing that
 the 'current' pulse is not composed of the same elecrons as it 
 progresses down the wire."

In my answer, I noted that the speed of the current pulse, or
signal, which is not dependent on the actual speed of the 
electrons, would be much faster, approaching the speed of light,
but also varying with the type of wiring used, as noted by
the Larry Spring citation (for which I omitted the link):

"I verified the speed of electrical current in television lead 
 line at from 66% to 95Z[%] the speed of light. 66% for coax 
 cable. 75% for ribbon lead. 90% for ladder lead line."
http://www.teslatech.info/ttstore/articles/spring/discover.htm

Since he notes that he 'verified' this information, he is saying
that he found citations in the literature for the data he later
reproduced.

If I'm misunderstanding the meaning of 'current pulse', and you 
are referring to the speed of the movement of the electrons, it
will be the same at both ends of the wire, and the speed will be
as discussed in my first response about 'directed drift'.


You then state:

"Also I'd like a journal reference for the 'electron migration
 speed' through a semiconductor such as a transistor."

Your desire for "a definitive journal-article reference for the
'drift velocity' or 'drift speed' of electrons", and for "a
journal reference for the 'electron migration speed' through a
semiconductor such as a transistor", were not stated or implied
in your original question. If they had been, I would not have
attempted to answer the question, since I do not have access to
such journals. They require a paid subscription, and are generally
much harder to search for specifics such as you request than are
the mainstream websites available via Google.

In summary, there are no simple answers for either the speed
of the 'directed drift' of electrons through a conductor, or
for the transmission of a signal, or 'current pulse' through
a conductor (or semi-conductor), because of the numerous
variables involved in the voltage, composition and size of
the wire or circuitry, temperature and so on. Nor can I 
provide you with a formula which will take all these factors
into account (if one exists). Any citations, whether from
"definitive journal-article reference" or from the internet,
as I provided, will only give you figures pertinent to the
specifics of the materials used in that particular instance.
To that end, I provided a working figure for the transmission
of a signal through an average conductor as 66% of the speed
of light.

Since I am not clear how the specific information you are
seeking is not adequately addressed in my answer, and since
I simply don't have access to the journal citations you have
now requested, I would be willing to write the editors and
request that my answer be removed, if that is your preference.

Otherwise, I would be more than willing to continue to assist
you by searching for "the 'electron migration speed' through
a semiconductor such as a transistor", by way of the resources
available to me, and to further clarify my answer to more
closely address your specific interests, if it's possible to
do so by way of those resources.

Let me know how you want to proceed.

Best regards...

sublime1-ga

Clarification of Answer by sublime1-ga on 08 Oct 2003 17:15 PDT
drbaker...

I did find a page, on the HyperPhysics site, kindly suggested
by my knowledgeable colleague, hedgie-ga, which allows for the
calculation of electron 'drift velocity', with the limitation
that it is for copper wire at normal temperatures. You can input
amperage and wire size in millimeters, and it will calculate the
drift velocity:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/miccur.html#c3

Also, a table of the relative resistivity and temperature
coefficients for various conductive and semi-conductive
materials is here:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/rstiv.html#c1

As well as a discussion of the parameters of semiconductor
current flow, here:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/intrin.html#c1

Best regards...

sublime1-ga

Clarification of Answer by sublime1-ga on 08 Oct 2003 18:29 PDT
Oh! One more link from the HyperPhysics site elaborates on the
math needed to compute the 'directed drift' of an electron.
Though it also uses the example of copper wire, 1mm in diameter,
with a length of 1 meter, and 1 volt applied to it, the discourse
sheds some light on how you might calculate based on the Fermi
energy of different materials:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/ohmmic.html#c2
Comments  
Subject: Re: Physics
From: kar2on-ga on 07 Oct 2003 19:08 PDT
 
Well, first let's be clear the; the same electron you send on one end
of the line isn't going to end up on the other end for a very very
very long time. Actually what happens is the initial bunch of
electrons you send through one end pushes the others to that already
are in the wire to come out the other end. So actually the speed of
the electron is much slower than you think, i know a lot of people
think electrons move very fast (sometimes near the speed of light).
But actually in an circuit the 'drift velocity' of an electron is
quite slow, and depends on a few variables. However due to 'pushing'
effect, while the electrons move very slowly, current moves very fast.
Because immediately pushing one electron on the input causes one to
come out the output. Thus current is very very fast, but it too
depends on certain variables. The variable you want is actually called
drift velocity of the electron.
Finally electron mobility is a termed use to desribed how well
electrons travel inside not a conductor, but a semiconductor. I think
you might have got the terms wrong, since electron mobility is very
rarely associated with conductor. HOwever electron mobility (and also
hole mobility) is dependant only on the type of semiconductor material
used.
Subject: Re: Physics
From: kar2on-ga on 07 Oct 2003 19:24 PDT
 
After reading your question again, i realized i didn't answer your
question properly. Actually the variable you're looking for is phase
velocity. Phase velocity tells you how fast the signal travels inside
the material. Note phase velocity can sometimes exceed the speed of
light. Don't worry, theoretically it's possible. However the actual
(physical) speed at which the signal travels is called group velocity
of the wave. The speed of light we're used to is actually the group
velocity of light.
This applies for all materials, however the method of finding the
group velocity differs for different materials( good-conductor,
quasi-conductor, dielectric). The method is actually quite long, and
requires understanding in plane wave propagation. Actually almost all
electromagnetic theory books cover this subject, and i suggest you
look up one. My two favorites are :
Electromagnetic Theory , Fawwaz T. Ulaby
Field and wave Electromagnetics, David K. Cheng
*the first book is quite basic and a better one for understanding
*the second book is quite advanced and is better if you have an
electromagnetic theory background.
Subject: Re: Physics
From: knifeandgear_com-ga on 07 Oct 2003 20:59 PDT
 
you might want to look at this page: http://www.amasci.com/miscon/speed.html
Subject: Re: Physics
From: trueparent-ga on 08 Oct 2003 02:09 PDT
 
Uh, just a two cents worth, here.  200 km per second should read
200,000 km per second, in the next to the last paragraph of
sublime1-ga's Answer.
To be precise, 186,000 miles per second equals the speed of light.
1 mile equals 1.6093 km
66% of the speed of light equals 122,760 miles per second.
122,760 miles equals 197,557.66 km
Rounding off 197,557.66 km per second, gives us 200,000 km per second.
God Bless,
trueparent
Subject: Re: Physics
From: stevenpace-ga on 12 Oct 2003 03:30 PDT
 
Think of a wave on the ocean.  Obviously, a wave starting in Japan
does not have the same water when it arrives in California.  Or a wave
in a string.  In that case, it is even more obvious.  Of course
electrical current is not a longitudenal wave, but transverse waves
are almost the same.  Sound, electrical current can be visualised as
small pressure differences in the medium.   The question of why the
"very fast" is limited to the speed of light, ALL field effects
(gravity, electrical, magnetic) are limited to the speed of light.  In
other words, the electron would not "know" its neigbor had moved any
sooner than the speed of light.  Glad to help, or confuse, whichever
the case may be...

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