I am searching for the correct birthdate for Phoebe Jane Haines born
in the Province of Ontario in either 1882 OR 1883. Her father's name
was John Haines and her mother's name was Ann Haines nee Joynt. |
Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
09 Oct 2003 20:00 PDT
Do you happen to know Phoebe's husband's name (if any)?
I found a record of parents with same names that have two children but
neither of the names listed are "Phoebe".
Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
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Clarification of Question by
beajane-ga
on
10 Oct 2003 00:07 PDT
Phoebe Jane Haines married George B. Stanton in Manitoba somewhere
around 1905 or 1906. could you tell me the names you did find so I can
verify this is thew correct family ?
This was my grandmother and I need the info for a gravestone.
I also wonder if her death certificate which is where I got the
information as to the province of her birth is in error. Perhaps she
was actually born in Manitoba. The family later lived in the Birtle
area.
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Clarification of Question by
beajane-ga
on
10 Oct 2003 15:44 PDT
I will try to add the required information
1. Phoebe Jane Haines birthdate is listed on her death certificate as Nov.30,
1883 and in Ontario
2. Death date was December 23, 1957 in Prince George, B.C. Her age was given
as 75 years. Either her age or her birth year have to be incorrect as it
does not add up. Also there is a possibility of her having been born in
Manitoba instead of Ontario, since I believe she grew up around Birtle, Man.
3. Do not have George B Stanton's birth or death dates handy but can obtain
them if necessary.
4. Had three living sons - Cornelius (born in 1909) Thomas (Born 1912) Wilbur
(born 1918.)
1918
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Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
11 Oct 2003 13:57 PDT
Do you happen to know the names of any of Phoebe's brothers and/or sisters.
Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
beajane-ga
on
11 Oct 2003 14:09 PDT
Re request for information on Phoebe Jane Haines' siblings:
She was part of a large family but I do not know most of their names
She had sisters named Gladys and Bessie (which might have been
Elizabeth I suppose, and one of her brothers was named Wilber. I will
try to find out more but this is all I have for right now.
Also with regard to her husband, Beorge B. Stanton. His birthdate
was 1881 in England and death date January 13, 1948 in Burns Lake B.C.
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Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
13 Oct 2003 18:36 PDT
I am posting the infromation I was able to find in the comment section
for review as you requested.
Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
beajane-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 01:00 PDT
Thank you, tutuzdad-ga, for the effort you have put into this search.
I know that you have found the right family but your theory is
incorrect. I know that the name Alberta Haines is correct, especially
as the name of her husband is now known to me. John R. Haines is
probably correct and I am sure there was an Annie among the siblings,
but as I stated I do know that there were also a number of other
children ie: Phoebe Jane, Wilbur OR Wilber, Bessie and Gladys.
Wilbur died in World War I and as a child I met both Gladys and
Bessie. I think Bessie was the youngest. Is it possible to access the
1891 census or whatever the next one was? Are there any other
avenues you can pursue on this as I really need this birthdate
clarified ?
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Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 11:40 PDT
The trick is going to be to find a solid source on at least one of the
known family members. This may lead us to others or to living family
members who know more. Perhaps we could try to pursue Wilbur/Wilber's
military records. Do you know what military service he was inducted
into? Where he might have fought/died? etc?
tutuzdad-ga
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Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 12:18 PDT
Dear beajane-ga;
EXCITING NEWS! I WAS ABLE TO CONFIRM THAT THE BROTHER YOU MENTIONED
“DID” EXIST.
His name was WALTER WILBUR JOYNT HAINES (on his induction records he
reported his own name as W. WILBUR JOSEPH HAINES) and he was the son
of a farmer named John B. Haines. His date of birth is listed as April
27, 1894 and he was a "clerk" by trade. He enlisted in the Canadian
Over-Seas Expeditionary Force through a recruiter located at Waskada,
Manitoba on January 3, 1916 at the age of 21 years 8 months. He was
inducted into the military on January 8, 1916.
NATIONAL ARCHIVES OF CANADA
http://data4.archives.ca/netacgi/nph-brs?s1=haines&s2=wilbur&s3=&Sect4=AND&l=20&Sect1=IMAGE&Sect2=THESOFF&Sect5=CEF6PEN&Sect6=HITOFF&d=CEF6&p=1&u=http://www.archives.ca/02/02010602_e.html&r=1&f=G
Here are the images of the actual records in what is presumably his
own handwriting:
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc005/362645b.gif
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc005/362645a.gif
The unfortunate news is that this has not immediately led me to anyone
who knows more about your family, but from a nostalgia standpoint I
thought you would be interested in seeing these records anyway.
Best regards;
Tutuzdad-ga
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Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 14:02 PDT
I did find the 1901 Census for the area your family hailed from
(Wilber said on his enlistement application that he was born in
Brandon, Manitoba) but it is not indexed by name. Without knowing more
than we already know, one would have to physicaly pour over 143,000
images to know if the is an entry for a certain individual. I am
looking to see if any other census after the 1881 census has been
indexed:
http://data4.archives.ca/netacgi/nph-brs?s2=MB&s1=&l=20&Sect1=IMAGE&Sect2=THESOFF&Sect5=FS31PEN&s10=1901&Sect6=HITOFF&d=GS31&p=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.archives.ca%2F02%2F02012202_e.html&r=0&f=S
Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
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Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 14:23 PDT
Reviewing my data I just realized my error re: Annie vs Phoebe Ann
theory. I inadvertently overlooked or lost sight of the middle name
"Jane" in her name. At any rate, you mentioned a gravestone. Do you
know where Phoebe is buried by chance? If not, I believe I might have
found her burial place.
tutuzdad-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 14:37 PDT
If your type in the surname STANTON in this database:
http://www.city.pg.bc.ca/rec_culture/cemetery/cemeterysearch.cfm
You will see that a PHOEBE JANE STANTON was buried on December 27,
1957 in the Prince George Municipal Cemetery, specifically in the
grave located here:
SECTION A2
BLOCK 5A
PLOT 0011 NW
We're getting there - slowly but surely!
Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 14:49 PDT
Here is the record of Phoebe's death dated December 23, 1957 at the
age of 73. This would likley put her birth in 1884 (perhaps, but not
likley, 1883).
You can purchace the death event certificate here and it MAY OR MAY
NOT list a date of birth.
http://www.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca:9000/sn-5C4EF1C/view/Deaths/find-adv%2B%20(givennames%20%3D%20phoebe)%20AND%20(surname%20%3D%20stanton)%20%2B%2B%2B%2B/1
I'd say this is probably as close as we're going to get to an actual
answer without ordering the certificate - and even then the
information still might not be on it.
Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 20:10 PDT
I realize that I've given you some information that you probably
already have but to make sure you get everything I find I thought I'd
post it just in case. I know you already know Phoebe's date of death
for example but didn't know if you were aware of her actual grave
location. As for the death certificate, I know you already have one
but I mentioned the "event" recording just in case it happens to be
some other document which migh tbear a date of birth (I don't know if
its the same document or not, you see). I just thought I'd clarify
that so you didn't think I was scatterbrained and not reading your
posts.
I hate to do this in segments but there is a great deal of work and
time between hopeful (or at least interesting) finds. Having said that
I also managed to srounge up these, that may or may not be something
significant to you but you'll probably find them interesting anyway:
GERTRUDE BESSIE HAINES ("Bessie", perhaps?)
http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-11FAAF/view/Deaths/find-adv%2B%20(givennames%20%3D%20bessie)%20AND%20(surname%20%3D%20haines)%20%2B%2B%2B%2B/1
GEORGE BIDDER STANTON ("George B. Stanton", perhaps?)
http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-3F809E8/view/Deaths/find-adv%2B%20(givennames%20%3D%20george)%20AND%20(surname%20%3D%20stanton)%20%2B%2B%2B%2B/3
WILBUR HAINES STANTON (our "Wilbur Stanton" no doubt, killed in action
in Italy)
http://search.bcarchives.gov.bc.ca/sn-3F809E8/view/Deaths/find-adv%2B%20(surname%20%3D%20stanton)%20%2B%2B%2B%2B/24
More if it comes available.
Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 20:42 PDT
Again, I know this does not directly address your question but I had
some free time and I got a bit obsessed with working on your family
tree so I’ll make another off-topic entry here:
I have since confirmed that the GEORGE BIDDER STANTON listed above is
most certainly the father of our WILBER HAINES STANTON son of PHOEBE
JANE STANTON (nee, Haines). My hope was that through this bit of
information I might develop something or someone new who might know
more, but alas, I did not.
Wilbur was indeed killed in action in Italy in 1944 while serving with
the 17th Regiment of the Royal Canadian Artillery. He left behind a
widow, Martha Lauretta Stanton, of New Westminster, British Columbia,
Canada.
VETERANS AFFAIRS CANADA
http://198.103.134.2/general/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=2612983
Regards;
Tutuzdad-ga
|
Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 21:50 PDT
Ok. One more and then I'll let it rest a while:
Here is the memorial record of Phoebe's brother, Army Private WILBUR
WALTER JOYNT HAINES who died on August 26, 1918. He served with the
1st Canadian Mounted Rifles (Saskatchewan Regt.) and was killed in
action in Feuchy, France. He is buried in the Orange Hill Cemetery,
Feuchy, France, plot A9.
http://198.103.134.2/general/sub.cfm?source=collections/virtualmem/Detail&casualty=532830
(Notice this citation about Birtle, Manitoba being the family
homeplace: "Son of John B. and Annie Haines, of Birtle, Manitoba.")
Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
beajane-ga
on
14 Oct 2003 22:58 PDT
Thank you for all your efforts Tutuzdad-ga ! If you wish to stop
at this point I can understand - you have turned up a wealth of family
information for me. As I am now pretty sure that my grandmother was
born in Manitoba (one record I have heard from in the last two days
says Lake of The Woods) I think I will concentrate on the Manitoba
Office of Vital Statistics and see what I can get there. One does not
expect that death certificates will have incorrect information but
apparently they do ! I feel I have certainly received my money's worth
and again thanks
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Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
15 Oct 2003 07:06 PDT
At this point of course it hasn't cost you anything. You will not be
charged unless someone finds the actual date and posts it as an answer
OR until you give permission for someone to post information that you
WILL ACCEPT as an answer short of the information you requested. By
your comment, "I feel I have certainly received my money's worth" am I
to assume you would like me to close your question now and claim the
posted fee, even though my answer did not turn up the actual date you
wanted?
Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
|
Dear beajane-ga;
Well, for what it's worth, this is all I was able to find. I'll let
you be the judge as to whether it answers your question and whether
it’s worthy of compensation or not:
------------------------------------------------------------
Here are your great-grandparents:
JOHN BYRON HAINES (b. 1847 in Strafford, Ontario; d. 1928, Winnipeg,
Manitoba)
ANN HAINES (nee, JOYNT) (b. 1856, Quebec; d. June 03, 1917)
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/family_group_record.asp?familyid=10993952
They married on April 21, 1875 in Winnipeg, Manitoba. In the 1881
Canadian
Census they were living in Little Saskatchewan, Western Extension,
Extension, Manitoba.
------------------------------------------------------------
I was able to find these records of only three children dating from
this
period:
ALBERTA MARZETTA HAINES (Female)
Birth: 15 SEP 1876 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Manitoba
Death: 04 JUL 1925
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/AF/individual_record.asp?recid=41883412&lds=0®ion=-1®ionfriendly=&frompage=99
--------------------------------
JOHN HAINES (Male) b. 1878 in Manitoba
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/individual_record.asp?INDI_CODE=1881CN_179751_3&frompage=99
--------------------------------
Interestingly, (and I think this is significant) there is also this
entry from about the same period you mentioned:
ANNIE HAINES (Female) born sometime between Aug. 8-12, 1880 in the
Northwest
Territories
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/individual_record.asp?INDI_CODE=1881CN_179751_4&frompage=99
------------------------------------------------------------
Now, my theory (and it's just a theory mind you) is that unless this
child died in infancy and the Haines family had another female child
shortly thereafter and gave her the same name (ANN, as in "Phoebe
Ann"), it really isn't likely that they would have named two living
children Ann or Annie. It is my theory also that this entry is
probably Phoebe, known affectionately as Annie since was not uncommon
for families to report the names of family members to census
collectors as being identified by their common name. A person named
Margaret for example is commonly listed on census records as Maggie,
Madge, Marge and a number of other common names other than their given
name at birth.
If my theory is correct and this "Annie" turns out to be your "Phoebe
Ann Haines" then the date of birth you are looking for will be
somewhere between August 8th and August 12th, 1880. There is, of
course, no way for me to verify this so it remains an unproven theory.
------------------------------------------------------------
So you can see how difficult the research has become from here, since
no "Phoebe" appears in these records, there just wasn't very much to
go on. Occasionally you can make contact with other researchers who
are studying this lineage and making submissions like the ones I've
shown you and develop more information. Perhaps these related bits of
information can help you get closer to your answer or perhaps find
someone related to these individuals who knows more:
I was able to find a bit more information about ALBERTA HAINES:
ALBERTA M. HAINES married JOHN THOMAS BROUGH on January 10, 1906 in
Birtle, Manitoba.
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/IGI/individual_record.asp?recid=100117376677&lds=1®ion=11®ionfriendly=North+America&frompage=99
Here is the master household record for all the individual family
members:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/Census/household_record.asp?HOUSEHOLD_CODE=1881CN_179751&HOUSEHOLD_SUB=1&frompage=99
While it does not actually prove my theory or establish a date of
birth beyond a reasonable doubt, please let me know if you feel that
this research is worthy of compensation. If so, I will close your
question for you. My hope is that this added information sets you on
the right path to discover more about your family history.
Best regards;
Tutuzdad-ga
INFORMATION SOURCES
LDS FAMILY SEARCH
http://www.familysearch.org/
GENFORUM
http://genforum.genealogy.com/
ROOTSWEB WORLDCONNECT
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/
SEARCH STRATEGY
SEARCH ENGINE USED:
Google ://www.google.com
SEARCH TERMS USED:
NAMES LISTED ABOVE |
