Hi, 
 
We're looking for a system which allows parents to page their kinds
when they arrive at the schools to allow for the kids to be kept
safely within the school and then only allow the kids whom have been
paged to be released at the gate.
 
There are many issues concerning this, and I'm open for discussion if
you're willing to through comments till we arrive at an agreed scope
of doable deliverables for this question:
 
1. Keychain attachable transmitting unit. 
2. Control on mixing up parents by having the right pager respond to
the parent and assume there will be thousands in the same area.
3. The pager should be very small and consumes low amounts of power. 
4. Possibly attachable to the band of a wrist watch. 
5. Rings when paged. 
6. Shows proof of page to the security guard at the gate. 
7. Affordable. 
8. May need a unit to sit at the school’s gate to coordinate between
the transmitters and pagers.
 
If you have better ideas to achieve the goal, I’m all ears. 
 
-DustyDune
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 16 Sep 2003 10:01 PDT 
Hello - 
 
I don't believe keychain pagers are in the "multi-user" realms yet. 
 
 
How about something like this? 
 
http://www.visiplex.com/binfiles/vs5100.pdf
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 16 Sep 2003 10:53 PDT 
Hi JBF, 
 
Looked at it, looks pretty standard hardware with all the bells and
whistles.  What we'll need is a lot less features.
 
Size needs a bit of improvement and communication protocol can use a
bit of simplicity where messages are not required, just flags to
notify the kid that their parents are waiting.
 
Any ideas? 
 
-DustyDune
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 16 Sep 2003 11:22 PDT 
How old are these kids?  Something tells me pagers are not going to
work.  They'll break, they'll be swapped around, batteries will run
out, etc.
 
Are you up to a different system, or must it be pagers?
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 16 Sep 2003 11:30 PDT 
I just read that you're up to a different system at the bottom of your
original posting.
 
What about something that can send a message to the particular kid's
supervisor, and then the supervisor dismisses the kid upon receiving
the message?
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 16 Sep 2003 11:31 PDT 
Also, pagers will get lost (that's a biggie I forgot to mention).
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 16 Sep 2003 15:12 PDT 
Hi, 
 
It doesn't need to be a pager, but a unit that can be clipped on to a
wrist watch or left inside a bag for kids between the ages of six and
twelve years.
 
The idea, as you pointed out, might not be practical because they
could easily lose them and break them.
 
Any suggesions?  A supervisor to manage things is not possible, not
enough of them are around to manage the number of kids and their
paging as well as to keep an eye on who is where and doing what. :-)
 
-DustyDune
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 16 Sep 2003 18:31 PDT 
I think researcher omniscientbeing-ga has an excellent point, and one
that puts paging or any notification system idea in jeopardy.  Major
liability issues there.
  
There has to be a person at the gate that can verify the identity of
the parent or guardian who is picking the child up.
 
How about this.  A parent shows up, goes to the gate, their identity
is verified, and then the supervisor hits a button on a device that
sends a number to a LCD-type screen in the "classroom" or wherever the
children are.  I have seen systems that utilize a large LCD panel that
flashes a large red number.  The child knows his number by heart and
when he sees it on the screen, he goes to the gate to meet his
guardian.
 
Would you like me to investigate such a system?
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 17 Sep 2003 03:51 PDT 
See my answer to the comment. :-) 
 
-DustyDune
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 17 Sep 2003 08:31 PDT 
OK, notwithstanding, what about the LCD idea?
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 17 Sep 2003 15:19 PDT 
That wouldn't cover the needs.  I can take sources where these custom
units can be designed and manufactures if necessary.  Up to it? :-)
 
-DustyDune
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 17 Sep 2003 17:08 PDT 
Were you responding to both posts?  You're saying the LCD option
wouldn't cover your needs?
 
Also, is there any distinguishing characteristics about the children's
location?  Do they have cubby holes or something they frequently
return to, or some thing they encounter daily?
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 17 Sep 2003 17:11 PDT 
Trying to think of ideas where the children can be notified without
having to carry a device.
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 17 Sep 2003 17:14 PDT 
Any solutions on this page? 
 
http://www.microframecorp.com/vibratingpagersystems.htm
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 17 Sep 2003 17:27 PDT 
More of the same types of products are made by this company: 
 
http://www.commtechwireless.com/
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 18 Sep 2003 11:18 PDT 
Still there?
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 18 Sep 2003 12:54 PDT 
Yes still there, trying to figure out how to proceed. 
 
Give me a bit of time to re-group. :-) 
 
-DustyDune
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 18 Sep 2003 14:46 PDT 
Perhaps the pagers would work, if you have a reserve of backups.
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by taxmama-ga on 19 Sep 2003 08:45 PDT 
Hi Dusty,  
 
Here's an idea - if you've ever been to the Cheesecake Factory 
or Outback, they hand you these temporary pager units.  
You walk up, give them your name, they beep (or vibrate) 
you when they're ready.  
 
That looks like a simple system, with a short range.  
If children are handed numbered pagers each day, at  
the end of the day, their numbers will be randomized.  
No one will be able to predict which child has which 
number, in advance.  
 
And I suspect the systems are not costly, either.  
Ah, I found a place to get them  
http://zoom.ntn.com/guest.asp 
 
In fact, I'll bet they can help you design an application 
to work for the school.  
 
What do you think? 
 
Best wishes 
 
Your TaxMama-ga
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 30 Sep 2003 00:23 PDT 
Hi, 
 
I'm back.  Can't use LCDs, need to look into custom manufacturing.  If
you'll get me contacts in that area, I would then consider the
question answered. :-)
 
What do you think? 
 
-Dusty
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 30 Sep 2003 12:18 PDT 
Dusty - 
 
Did you look at the last links I gave you?  Those are not LCD's. 
Those are exactly what you were originally looking for.
 
jbf
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 02 Oct 2003 08:39 PDT 
Is that going to work for you?
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 02 Oct 2003 10:17 PDT 
>Did you look at the last links I gave you?  Those are  
>not LCD's.  Those are exactly what you were originally  
>looking for. 
 
Which of the below are you referring to above?: 
 
1. http://www.visiplex.com/binfiles/vs5100.pdf 
2. http://www.microframecorp.com/vibratingpagersystems.htm 
3. http://www.commtechwireless.com/ 
4. http://zoom.ntn.com/guest.asp  
 
-Dusty
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 02 Oct 2003 10:30 PDT 
2. http://www.microframecorp.com/vibratingpagersystems.htm  
3. http://www.commtechwireless.com/  
 
Both of these companies look to have exactly what you were originally
asking for -- a localized paging system.
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 02 Oct 2003 14:13 PDT 
Hi Jbf, 
 
My original question you're referencing expresses that 'There are many
issues concerning this, and I'm open for discussion if
you're willing to through comments till we arrive at an agreed scope 
of doable deliverables for this question'.  That to me means that the
scope will be further determined via discussion and if you're will to
do that, we can discuss it in the clarifications or comments till that
is clear.
 
Now, from the discussions, with you in fact, it was mentioned that
'..Something tells me pagers are not going to
work.  They'll break, they'll be swapped around, batteries will run 
out, etc.'.   
 
Do you feel that we have arrived from the discussion at satisfying the
resulting deliverables?  I'm confused, that's why I would like to run
this by you for clarification.
 
Thank you. 
 
-Dusty
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 02 Oct 2003 20:00 PDT 
Dusty - 
 
True, but then I said in a subsequent clarification, 
 
"Perhaps the pagers would work, if you have a reserve of backups." 
 
LCD's won't work for you, so at this point, I don't see any other
options, short of installing some sort of intercom system.  Anything
the child has to carry runs the risk of being broken.  If the pagers
are industrial enough, they might sustain wear and tear.  You could
also tell the kids that there is "disciplinary actions" awaiting
anyone who decides to "swap" his/her pager with another or vandalize
his/her pager.  Also, my opinion on whether or not it will work is not
really material to the question, since I don't have any experience
with this kind of "bulk paging" setup.  When you mentioned "custom
manufacturing," what were you referring to?
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 03 Oct 2003 23:18 PDT 
>True, but then I said in a subsequent clarification,  
>"Perhaps the pagers would work, if you have a reserve of  
>backups."  
 
That would conflict with point #7 in it being an affordable solution.
:-)
 
>LCD's won't work for you, so at this point, I don't see  
>any other options, short of installing some sort of intercom  
>system. 
 
An intercom solution is there, but it's not working well due to the
noisy atmosphere, parents spend anywhere between twenty minutes to an
hour till their kids actually hear them and the parents waiting in a
large group outside cycle announcement requests till their kids happen
to hear them.
 
>Anything the child has to carry runs the risk of being  
>broken.  If the pagers are industrial enough, they might 
>sustain wear and tear.   
 
In point #4, the unit, if small enough and possibly attachable to a
hand band or maybe on the inside of their bags perhaps.
 
>You could also tell the kids that there is "disciplinary actions"  
>awaiting anyone who decides to "swap" his/her pager with another  
>or vandalize his/her pager.   
 
Doesn't work with kids, they have enough worries in life than to be
subjected to this sort of added responsibility and their ability to
handle it is not likely to be feasible.
 
>Also, my opinion on whether or not it will work is not really  
>material to the question, since I don't have any experience 
>with this kind of "bulk paging" setup.   
 
When I took your opinion and logic as being reasonable and worked with
it, as expressed in my question that I would, you don't want that now
to count? Don't you find that to be a bit funny? :-)
 
>When you mentioned "custom manufacturing," what were you  
>referring to? 
 
There are companies which custom design and manufacture paging
solutions for companies.  An example would be a telecomm operator
wanting to package a service with a unit, they would give their
requirements to a manufacturer who would design a unit to their market
needs and specification and based on the volume, it would impact the
cost per unit a lot and would address the needs more closely.
 
-Dusty
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 05 Oct 2003 10:16 PDT 
>When I took your opinion and logic as being reasonable and worked
with
>it, as expressed in my question that I would, you don't want that now
>to count? Don't you find that to be a bit funny? :-) 
 
My entire opinion started off as "Something tells me pagers are not
going to
work." They'll break, they'll be swapped around, batteries will run 
out, etc." and then amended with, "but perhaps the pagers would work,
if you have a reserve of backups."  Taken in its entirety and in
context, my stance is: "I originally thought the pagers might not
work, but given the fact that I have never implemented a paging
system, especially one for children, I'm not qualified to say whether
or not it will or won't."
 
I would think custom manufacturing is ordinarily more expensive than
off-the-shelf solutions, especially in the area of electronics
manufacturing.  If this current solution is not affordable for you
(which is basically what you're looking for, save the pager being too
large?), I don't believe a custom-designed will be.  There are
additional R&D costs, custom molding/assembly costs, etc.
 
I will, however, check into it.  What are your exact requirements for 
 
a) the design 
b) quantity 
c) affordability  
 
jbf777
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 06 Oct 2003 11:44 PDT 
You might want to consider reposting the question if you'd like us to
continue working on this, as it will be expiring within a week's time.
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 06 Oct 2003 14:00 PDT 
>a) the design  
 
Small, robust, attachable to a bag strap or a wrist band. 
 
b) quantity  
 
Quantities we'd be purchasing these units in would be 100k, 250k and
500k units.
 
c) affordability  
 
With the very limited features and basic design and quantitty we're
looking for, it should be affordable compared to retail or corporate
quantities as the above quantities sound pretty decent to me, what do
you think? :-)
 
-Dusty
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 06 Oct 2003 14:32 PDT 
100K as in = 100,000 pagers??
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 06 Oct 2003 15:35 PDT 
Yes. 
 
-Dusty
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 06 Oct 2003 18:44 PDT 
Do you represent a network of schools?  That's an incredible number of
pagers, and an incredible amount of money.
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 07 Oct 2003 09:19 PDT 
I'm negotiating with manufacturer and will let you know.
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 07 Oct 2003 10:50 PDT 
We do, we manage 350 schools at half a million students and counting,
this would be an added value service.
 
Thank you. 
 
-Dusty
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 10 Oct 2003 20:02 PDT 
Dusty - 
 
Company I'm working with needs a little more detail: 
 
1) Size of school, layout, how may floors, how many  
pagers, do they want tone, tone only, vibrate, alpha? 
 
2) do they want to cover outside of school, if so how  
far? 
 
3) will someone do this manually or do they want anyone 
with access to a phone be able to do this? 
 
4) Do they want to monitor anything i.e.  
pumps, motors, doors any change of status and be paged?
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 13 Oct 2003 12:31 PDT 
Hi - 
 
I'll need those questions answered in order to move forward with this
manufacturer, and you might want to repost the question, as it will be
expiring tomorrow.
 
Thanks, 
 
Jordan
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clarification of Question by dustydune-ga on 13 Oct 2003 13:24 PDT 
I rather ask you to post an answer briefing and complete it later in
the comments perhaps if that is allowed by the system instead of
reposting the question?
 
If you can, then I'll rate it based on the completion.  Is that
possible here?
 
I'm waiting for feedback from someone who's assigned this project at
our entity.
 
-Dusty
 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 13 Oct 2003 14:01 PDT 
Unfortunately, I can't post it as an answer because I cannot guarantee
that I actually will have one that is satisfactory.  As the system is
currently configured, I'm afraid you'll have to do a cut and paste and
repost the question with the .50 posting fee -- if you would like me
to continue working on it.
 
Thanks, 
 
jbf

---

Request for Question Clarification by jbf777-ga on 21 Oct 2003 19:48 PDT

Dusty -

The resource I'm working with is awaiting my contact.  Any update?

Thanks,

jbf

Hi Dustydune-ga,

  Here is my suggested system for such an application:
i) A keychain attached unit could communicate with the unit
situated at school's gate for coordination.
ii) The coordinating unit, then sends out a wireless
signature to the wristband receiver unit,which is compared
with the preset code on the unit.
iii) The wrist band unit flashes and beeps for few seconds
at few minute interval, till a button has to be
pressed on the unit (or) for a preset amount of time.
There is also a button on the wrist unit to check,
if it has been activated in brief absence/noisy environment.
iii)When the child enters the gate, an RFID reader could be
utilized to identify the wrist receiver and the coordinating
computer checks if the receiving unit was sent a page, and 
resets the wrist page receiver and opens the gate.

The keychain could be programmed with an unique code, partly derived
from the parents fingerprint with a non-overlapping school specific code.
The same code is programmed on the wrist band receiver.
The coordinating unit also has a lookup table for the signatures and
the RFID's on the wrist receivers.
A unique numeric password based on the code could be provided
to enable remote deactivation(using a touch tone phone) in the event
of a lost/stolen pager. The keychain pager and the wrist receiver
units will have almost non-removable engraved labels for identification.
The coordinating unit could be built using a linux computer, with
associated software(that enables maintaining a small database)/hardware
(RFID reader interface, wireless receiver/pager interface, electronic
door lock etc.) at fraction of the cost.
The wrist receiver could be made low power, by using a strong local
paging signal,intermittent polling and with programmable power down(during
 non school hours). Could be very cheap if manufactured in large amounts
and sourced from Taiwan/China.
The coordinating unit could start a countdown lapse timer for the particular
signature being reset,to allow any last minute visit by the child to pickup
his forgotten belongings, without the need to reinitiate the paging.

The advantage of the linux system is helpful in scalable security, total
customization and enhancements as the system is put to use.


Regards
ldavinci-ga

Hello ldavinci,

Great system, you sure covered it all! :-)

Wish you were a researcher and have interested in researching the
appropriate organizations whom might be interested in manufacturing
the system for us.

Thank you again, it did help us a lot!

-Dusty