Two references from Jung: Where did Jung say, "We can go with another
only as far as we have gone ourselves."? and where did Jung talk of
the two goals of a young person: to emancipate himself from his
nuclear family and to establish himself in the world to develop a
family of his own? I need a primary reference--exactly where and when
Jung said or talked about these two things. |
Request for Question Clarification by
juggler-ga
on
15 Oct 2003 17:04 PDT
Sylvia:
With regard to the first part of the question, do you remember where
you first encountered the quotation? Is it your impression that it's
an exact quote? Any additional clues might help.
Thanks.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
juggler-ga
on
15 Oct 2003 20:56 PDT
Just wanted to let you know that I now have a possible lead on the
quotation, and will follow up with a library visit tomorrow (10/16).
-juggler
|
Clarification of Question by
sylk-ga
on
16 Oct 2003 04:09 PDT
Hi!
The reference comes from James Hillman, The Myth of Analysis, p. 25
(Harper, 1972), "As Jung said often enough, we can go with another
only as far as we have gone ourselves."
Thanks,
Sylvia
|
Request for Question Clarification by
juggler-ga
on
16 Oct 2003 09:20 PDT
Sylvia:
Thanks for your clarification. As it happens, Hillman's book was the
"possible lead" I had in mind, as I found the quotation (with slightly
different wording) on this page, cached by Google:
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:EEQiSodpLh8J:web.ionsys.com/~remedy/HILLMAN,%2520JAMES.htm+%22gone+with+ourselves%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
I'm assuming then that Hillman does not give a citation for his
statement, so I won't be pursuing that angle.
Back to the drawing board...
-juggler
|
Request for Question Clarification by
juggler-ga
on
16 Oct 2003 15:10 PDT
Sylvia:
For something that Hillman claims Jung said "often enough," this
quotation is proving to be very elusive.
At this point, I'm wondering whether Hillman was perhaps paraphrasing
some of Jung's general concepts rather than referring to specific
passages.
I have some leads on the second part of your question (i.e., the young
person's goal of being emancipated from the nuclear family, etc.).
Perhaps it would be better, though, if I left this question open in
case another researcher is able to find a Jung quotation like "We can
go with another only as far as we have gone ourselves."
Regards,
juggler
|
Clarification of Question by
sylk-ga
on
16 Oct 2003 17:40 PDT
Dear juggler,
I'm afraid I can't offer any suggestions. I do think it is
probably an exact quote and not a summary statement. Please keep
trying. Thanks,
Sylvia
|
Clarification of Question by
sylk-ga
on
17 Oct 2003 10:13 PDT
Hi!
The quote about the training analysis is not helpful for what I need.
It is a completely different point. I need a primary reference in
Jung for that exact quotation--not a paraphrase or a different point.
Sorry! Not sure what to do at this point--do you want to give up?
Are there no Jung scholars on the Google staff?
Thanks,
Sylvia
|
Request for Question Clarification by
leli-ga
on
22 Oct 2003 01:24 PDT
Hello Sylvia
Although this may not be much help, I thought I'd send you a bit more
news of our searches.
It is indeed mysteriously difficult to find this quotation. Even after
Juggler had found it elusive, I went on trying. At first I was
encouraged by Frieda Fordham's "Introduction to Jung's Psychology"
where she says the analyst "cannot help another person to a stage
farther than he has reached himself". Since her book was "approved" by
Jung, who wrote a foreword, I thought this was hopeful.
Later, I found a psychotherapist writing:
In the "Development of Personality," Carl Jung said that "one can only
take another as far as one has come oneself"
http://www.zcportal.com/2003/003.asp
But the citation in both text and footnote (where the essay is said to
be in Vol 16 of the Collected Works) is inaccurate. By this stage, I
had already searched through Vol 16 and knew your quotation was very
unlikely to be there, but reading the "Development of Personality" in
Vol 17 didn't help either. I suppose there might possibly have been
something else in an earlier translation/version.
The second half of your question also proved difficult. It's hard to
find an essay where Jung is explicitly saying that a young person must
(a) emancipate himself from his childhood family
and
(b) establish himself in the world with his own family.
His remarks on these themes are scattered all over the place. In the
"Stages of Life" essay where I hoped to find useful material, he
mentions the "psychic revolution" of puberty and goes on to talk about
how one must "strike roots in the world", but he doesn't say much
about families. He has more to say on one of his favourite themes: the
contrast between the expansive, worldly first half of adulthood, and
the need for a more reflective path from mid-life onwards.
If you were happy with separate quotes for (a) and (b) you might find
this relevant to (b):
"Man has two aims: the first is the natural aim, the begetting of
children and the business of protecting the brood; to this belongs the
acquisition of money and social position. When this aim has been
reached a new phase begins: the cultural aim."
The same essay also says this, which I fear isn't what you want:
" . . for young people a liberation from the past may be enough: a
beckoning future lies ahead rich in possibilities. It is sufficient to
break a few bonds. The life-urge will do the rest."
Although there are plenty of places where Jung talks about young
adulthood as a time of establishing oneself, it's harder to find him
describing emancipation from the childhood family as an actual "goal".
I suspect none of this is what you need, but if you have any further
thoughts, do let us know.
Searching through some of the Collected Works reminds me why there are
so many "Introductions to Jung" around. His output was huge and
inspiring - but not very tidy!
Best wishes - Leli
PS I have searched in Vols 7, 8, 16 & 17. If anyone is still on the
trail, I suggest Vol 4 would be the next place to look:
http://psychematters.com/bibliographies/jungcw.htm
|
Clarification of Question by
sylk-ga
on
22 Oct 2003 18:59 PDT
Thank you for all your reseach. As you suspected,nothing is is as
exact as I would like. Does anyone know of a Concordance to Jung?
There is a several volume one for Freud, which is always very helpful
in finding a Freud quotation. If there is one for Jung (there should
be), that might help.
Thanks again,
Sylvia
|
Request for Question Clarification by
tehuti-ga
on
26 Oct 2003 03:16 PST
Hello Sylvia,
I have found a reference to the following:
General Index to the Collected Works of C.G. Jung. Princeton:
Princeton University Press, 1979. ISBN: 0691098670
Using the price comparison feature at AddALL, I found the following
availability, both new and used books, at prices between $53.50
(AbeBooks) and $119.53 (Amazon).
http://www.addall.com/New/BestSeller.cgi?location=10000&state=AK&dispCurr=USD&isbn=0691098670&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.addall.com%2Fdetail%2F0691098670.html&author=&title=
According to the Library of Congress catalogue, this is Volume 20 of
the Bollingen series of the Collected Works
http://catalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?v3=1&DB=local&CMD=010a+80453172&CNT=10+records+per+page
|
Clarification of Question by
sylk-ga
on
26 Oct 2003 05:16 PST
Hi!
An index is not the same thing as a concordance. A concordance lists
every time a word or phrase is used and in what context, so I do not
think this will help. Thank you for trying. At this point, I really
need a Jung scholar to help.
Sylvia
|
Clarification of Question by
sylk-ga
on
29 Oct 2003 10:06 PST
I am ready to close this question unsuccessfully. I was hoping for
more exact references for the two quotations. I did go and use the
index (Vol. 20)and could not find the exact references at all. Thank
everyone who was involved in this search, but alas, it is now time to
give up.
Syliva
|
Hello Sylvia.
I know an index is not the same as a concordance. Amongst other
things, I am a freelance book indexer and very familiar with both
concepts. However, an index, if properly constructed, will certainly
have a reference to concepts such as "marriage", "family", even
perhaps an entry such as "youth, goals of", which might help you to
pin down a possible location for the second part of your query. That
is why I gave you the reference to the index, after having established
that a concordance does not appear to have been produced.
I have read quite a lot of Jung's original works, as well a number of
studies about Jung, and have applied the concepts therein to a few
articles and talks on literature and mythology that I have produced
over the last 15 years or so, although, not having trained as a
Jungian analyst, I would not dream to call myself a Jung scholar (nor
a scholar of literature either, I hasten to add, since my formal
training is in biomedicine). Unfortunately, I do not have access to
the complete set of the Collected Works. I have looked through the 3
volumes I possess, plus Memories, Dreams and Reflections. With
respect to the second query, my inclination would be to look for
places where Jung discusses the journey of the solar hero.
With respect to the first query, I tend to agree with what has already
been said by others, namely that this is a paraphrase of ideas
expressed by Jung, which, given Jung's style, were probably expressed
in a much more verbose manner originally. |
