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Q: Developing photographs taken as color photographs in black and white ( No Answer,   5 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Developing photographs taken as color photographs in black and white
Category: Arts and Entertainment > Visual Arts
Asked by: singaporegirl-ga
List Price: $5.00
Posted: 17 Oct 2003 13:33 PDT
Expires: 16 Nov 2003 12:33 PST
Question ID: 267306
As I understand, you can develop phototgraphs that were taken as color
photographs in black and white.  What do you lose by doing that?  i.e.
why wouldn't all photographs be taken in color then to have the option
of being developed as black and white?  If the photograph  would look
better if taken in black and white originally, why is that so and how
big is the difference?
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: Developing photographs taken as color photographs in black and white
From: hlabadie-ga on 17 Oct 2003 13:46 PDT
 
The only real loss is in sharpness, but that is less of a problem now
than it once was, given the reduction in grain of color films. For
many photogrpahs, the softening is useful. It is also sometimes easier
to get a good exposure with color film than with black and white
films. The contrast of the black and white exposure  can be difficult
to manage for some photographers.

hlabadie-ga
Subject: Re: Developing photographs taken as color photographs in black and white
From: dancethecon-ga on 18 Oct 2003 11:08 PDT
 
Hi, Singaporegirl,

Though I'm sure hlabadie meant well, the above comment contains some
misinformation. Unfortunately I don't have time to correct it right
now, because I have to go out of town for the afternoon. I'll try to
log on late tonight. If I'm not able to do that, I'll do my best to
post a long comment Sunday afternoon (I'm in New York's time zone).

Best wishes,
dtc

P.S. I'm a national award-winning photographer who has also taught
photography.
Subject: Re: Developing photographs taken as color photographs in black and white
From: thatsafactjack-ga on 18 Oct 2003 16:35 PDT
 
Hello Singaporegirl -- One goal in taking photographs is to get the
best possible quality from the processed negative as possible, whether
black & white or color, and to maintain that quality in the finished
print. You can print color negatives on black & white paper using a
special KODAK paper, 'PANALURE', but it is a difficult and expensive
process that requires handling the paper in total darkness because it
is a 'panchromatic' paper. That is, a paper that is sensitive to the
light of all colors. Standard b & w photo paper is not sensitve to all
colors and that is why a filtered 'safelight' is used in the darkroom.
 Printing color negatives on standard b & w paper will result in some
colors, particularly reds and oranges, not being properly reproduced
in the print. In addition, printing color negatives on standard b & w
photo paper will result in low contrast images. Panalure paper boosts
the contrast range, which most color negatives printed as b&w require.
 Three reasons to use color film for color prints and b & w film for b
& w prints are these -- exposure latitude, contrast and grain
structure, or 'sharpness'. Even in this age of fully-automated
photography, we need films that are tolerant of over or under exposure
and can deliver a contrast range that will allow us to produce prints
from scanned or processed negatives with good color and a dynamic
range giving us sharp results. If you like the 'look' and feeling of
'texture' that b&w provides, KODAK, AGFA and ILFORD all manufacture 35
mm film that can be processed at one hour photo places, giving you b&w
prints, but sometimes the results can be a little disappointing when
compared to custom b&w printing. But the cost of the film and
processing is reasonable. Since computer photo programs like Adobe
'Photoshop' and others can convert scanned color negatives and digital
images to b &w on your computer screen  --  and using that technology,
you can control brightness and contrast, that might offer another
alternative.  I hope I've given you some information you find useful
and I wish you luck in your photography.
Subject: Re: Developing photographs taken as color photographs in black and white
From: dancethecon-ga on 19 Oct 2003 15:57 PDT
 
Hi again, Singaporegirl,

First let me set the record straight about the first comment you
received.

SHARPNESS:
Hlabadie made two statements about sharpness. 

Number 1:   "The only real loss is in sharpness, but that is less of a
problem now than it once was, given the reduction in grain of color
films."

This sentence implies that sharpness is dependent on grain size, and
that a grainy print can't be sharp. That's not true.  Some films with
large grain structure--Kodak's old standard black and white Tri-X is a
good example--are considered sharp films. Tri-X was the staple of
photojournalists for decades. Sure, it has pretty big grain. But it
produces sharp-looking prints because the edges of the grain are
sharp. It's possible to make film where the grain edges aren't sharp,
and, even if that film's grain is tiny, prints from it can easily look
mushy.

And sharpness depends on more than grain. In fact, there are many
other factors that affect print sharpness.

Printing color negatives onto some standard B&W (black and white)
papers will produce prints with increased grain. It's possible that
hlabadie equates a high amount of grain with a lack of sharpness, and
that's why hlabadie made that comment. Even so, it's misleading. On
top of that, it's possible to print color negatives and get black and
white prints without losing sharpness.


Number 2: "For many photogrpahs (sic), the softening is useful."

Hlabadie may like to make soft-looking photographs, but, with two
exceptions, it's not a good idea. One exception is a special
effect--making a photograph look soft on purpose. But like any effect,
if overdone or if done too often, it'll get old fast. The other
exception is in portraiture. When doing head and shoulders poses of
some people with my professional equipment, I'll sometimes put a
slight softening filter in front of my lens. Few people have the skin
and complexion of professional models, and some lenses are so sharp
that every skin blemish will be readily apparent. The typical amateur
photographer using typical amateur equipment wouldn't have to worry
about this issue very often.

The bottom line is that professional photographers almost always try
to make the sharpest photographs possible.

Again, maybe hlabadie defines grain and print softness differently
than photographers do. Or maybe hlabadie is a photographer whose
native language isn't English. Maybe this is simply a communication
problem, but that's not the way I read the comment.
 

COLOR VS. BLACK & WHITE EXPOSURE AND CONTRAST:
Hlabadie wrote, "It is also sometimes easier to get a good exposure
with color film than with black and white films. The contrast of the
black and white exposure  can be difficult to manage for some
photographers."

I'll take the second sentence first. Many people think that black and
white prints have to be contrasty. That's usually because most black
and white prints are printed badly, resulting in lots of blacks and
lots of whites, both with little or no texture. Many B&W prints have
few middle tones. Why? Bad printing; it's that simple. Good B&W
printing is a dying art.

Going to the first sentence, it's a fact that modern color negative
films are immensely forgiving about exposure mistakes. In fact, it's
possible to get a useful photo from many color negatives that have
been overexposed by as much as four or five stops (note, though, that
I said "useful photo" and not "great photo").

But the same can be said for most B&W films. In fact, the tonal range
of almost all B&W films exceeds that of color films. That means that
the printer has more contrast control when working with B&W. Slide
films fall at the other end of the scale, with color negative films
falling in the middle. The more compressed a film's contrast range is,
the more contrasty that film is said to be. There's a specialty film
that's designed to produce only two tones: black and white. It's the
film with the highest contrast and the shortest tonal range.


Singaporegirl, you got good info from thatsafactjack. Thatsafactjack
is absolutely right about the Panalure paper. Kodak designed it
specifically for making B&W prints from color negatives.

I do, however, disagree with thatsafactjack on a couple of small
points:

1. It's not difficult to print Panalure. It does have to be handled in
almost total darkness (there is a safelight designed for it, but it's
very, very dim, and many printers just choose to work in absolute
darkness), but that's not a problem for people who are used to
darkroom work. And I don't consider it an expensive process. Some
commercial labs will charge extra for it compared to basic B&W
printing, but usually not too much more. Maybe thatsafactjack lives
where the labs charge a lot more for this process.

2. Printing color negatives on standard B&W paper doesn't *have* to
result in low contrast prints. (OK, I'll admit I'm being nitpicky
here. <s>) It's a common problem, true, but there are ways around it.
But now we're getting into esoteric technical darkroom issues that are
way out of the scope of the question. The easiest way to make a good
B&W print from a color negative is to use Panalure paper, just as
thatsafactjack said.  :-)


Is it possible to make a B&W print from any color film? Yes. B&W
prints can even be made from color slides and from color Polaroid
prints. Digital processes make these transformations easy, but they
can be done the old-fashioned way, too. So why would someone prefer
B&W film to make a B&W print? Because more information will be on the
B&W negative. If the photographer or printer doesn't want all that
extra information--a long tonal range, for example--it's easy to
overlook. But if that information isn't there, then the printing
options are limited.

Singaporegirl, if you need color negatives printed on B&W paper, I
recommend that you find a custom photo lab in your area, and ask for
Panalure prints. A custom photo lab is one that caters to professional
photographers, but amateurs can use custom labs, too. This lab will
have a person making prints by hand. This type of print will almost
certainly be more expensive than you're used to, but you'll get good
results.

Good luck!
Subject: Re: Developing photographs taken as color photographs in black and white
From: lmnop-ga on 20 Oct 2003 08:41 PDT
 
It's almost 2004, and probably the best method of getting black and
white from color in any form is to scan the neg and print out the
print on a decent printer. Once you scan it, you can convert to black
and white with one command, and can control the exact output (even a
slight warm tone if you want, or whatever) on the computer. Shooting
color neg film is flexible in exposure AND color control, including
conversion to black and white, and the computer just makes it easier
than ever. Scanning it well is done at any lab these days, and they'll
even make a print for you, or you can print it at home on any
half-decent ink jet. I personally LOVE darkroom prints, but find
digital photography too wonderful to ignore. Hope this is of some
interest.

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