The quotation "When the Okies left Oklahoma and went to California, 
the average intelligence of both states went up," is widely attributed
to Will Rogers. (See for example, the New England Journal of Medicine,
Volume 312:1604-1608  June 20, 1985  Number 25 The Will Rogers 
phenomenon. Stage migration and new diagnostic techniques as a source 
of misleading statistics for survival in cancer)  Once, long ago, I 
read (In the New Republic if I remember correctly in about
1985-88)that this was really someone else's quote, perhaps WC Fields.
Whoever really said it, I'd like to know exactly when and have a 
primary source verification of some type.  A friend has upped the
ante, hence the reposting with additional $

---

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 03 Dec 2003 08:40 PST

I don't know if you've looked at the actual NEJM article from 1985,
but here's what the author's have to say about the quote:

"[a colleague] called our attention to a remark made by the
humorist-philosopher, Will Rogers, about a geographic migration during
the American economic depression of the 1930s.  Rogers said, "When the
Okies left Oklahoma and moved to California, they raised the average
intelligence level in both states."  We have not been able to find the
exact citation for this remark, and we have heard about similar
comments that have been ascribed to other sources.  Nevertheless,
since Rogers' humor had many salubrious effects..we propose [calling
the stage migration effect]...the Will Rogers phenomenon."

Looks to me like nobody really knows where it came from.  It's a
catchy quote, though.

pafalafa-ga

---

Clarification of Question by primarysource-ga on 03 Dec 2003 11:25 PST

"pafala" and "journalist" both deserve to be tipped, and I can't for
the life of me figure out how to pull it off.

Regarding the fact that the original article admitted they didn't have
the source, I hadn't checked, but as I said in the original post, I've
read elsewhere that the citation exists, and that it's not Rogers,
though I can't prove that either ( I did take journalist's suggestion
and have emailed "The New Republic")

I would like to pay each of you $50- Journalist for his hard efforts
and Pafala for going to the "primarysource" of the question.

Somehow I don't think it should be allowed to change the value of the
question when there's a request for a clarification, but is all I do
is change the value to $100 and then let both of you claim shared
answering?

>>is all I do is change the value to $100 and then let both of you claim shared
answering?<<

That will work.  I'll "answer" the question with this post, and then
make sure journalist-ga gets half.

By the way, your offer is most appreciated.  Although we've worked
hard to get you an answer (this question, in particular, got under my
skin...I'd really like to know the source myself), there's certainly
no obligation on your part to pay for an answer when you haven't
received one yet.  So on behalf of journalist-ga and myself, much
thanks for your generosity.

pafalafa-ga

Researchers may want to read comments on the earlier version of the question:

http://www.answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=261643

I have posted a question about this quote on a message board relating
to Will Rogers and contacted an organization associated with Will
Rogers.  I will let you know if I receive a reply.

Greetings Primarysource:

As I was researching your answer, I discovered another form of the
quote you seek to verify as being stated by Rogers:

"When the Oakies left Oklahoma and moved to California, it raised the
I.Q. of both states."
~ Will Rogers
From http://www.allthingswilliam.com/intelligence.html

I also located this version attributed to Rogers from a message board
at http://cbs.sportsline.com/messages/message/6792542/1067608008-beepers3
:
"During the Dust Bowl Days when the 'Okies' migrated to California, it
raised the I.Q. of both states."

Another version from
http://www.prostatepointers.org/prostate/leibowitz/DrLeib16.html
reads:
"Will Rogers quipped ญญ "in the 1930's, there was a mass migration of
people from Oklahoma to California. As a result, the average I.Q. of
both states....increased."

And yet another version at http://www.quotemeonit.com/rogersw.html reads:
"I've always believed all those people who moved from Oklahoma to
California raised the average IQ of two states."

AND MORE VARIATIONS:

"When the dust bowl sent some Oklahomans to California Will Rogers
said the average IQ of both states went UP..."
From http://www.shareyourstate.com/OK/welcome.htm

"When an Okie moves to California, he raises the IQ of both states"
From www.happygiraffe.net/plan9fortunes.txt 

"You know what Will Rogers said about California. During the dust bowl, when
the okies migrated out here, "it improved the IQ of both states." 
From http://talk.shooters.com/room_30/Sep032001.cfm

A reference at http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:4xo_ekFZZhAJ:www.tvcc.cc.tx.us/Faculty/benger/1302/1930S.rtf+%22will+rogers%22+%22raised+the+intelligence%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
reads:
"John Steinbeck told about the Okies in The Grapes of Wrath, and Will
Rogers said that when they went to California, they raised the
intelligence of both states."

The Oklahoma Historical Society presents an article at
http://www.ok-history.mus.ok.us/enc/okie.htm that reads in part:
"In 1937 California passed an "Anti-Okie Law" making it a misdemeanor
to "bring or assist in bringing" any indigent person into that state.
The law was later declared unconstitutional, but the bias remained.
There are those who, like Will Rogers, believed that the migration of
"Okies" to California raised the intellectual level of both states."

Your reference to the 1985 article is cited at
http://animus.mf.uni-lj.si/~ethics/ethlit.htm :
"Feinstein AR, Sosin DM, Wells CK. The Will Rogers phenomenon. Stage
migration and new diagnostic techniques as a source of misleading
statistics for survival in cancer. N Engl J Med 312:1604-1608, 1985 --
The Will Rogers phenomenon - "when Okies left Oklahoma and moved to
California they raised the average intelligence level in both states"

*********

ALTERNATE ATTRIBUTIONS

Researching this version where IQ is used instead of "intelligence," I
discovered another site referencing the quote from a NY governor:
"University of Southern Mississippi Political Science Professor Joseph
Parker said taking shots at Mississippi is nothing new. ?A governor of
New York once said he was going to send the patients in their mental
asylum to Mississippi; it would raise the intelligence level in both
states,? Parker said."
From http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/2001.04.27/world/story03.shtml

I found one reference to Mark Twain having said it:
"I remember reading where Mark Twain also said that all the Okies
moving to California during the dustbowl raised the IQ of both states"
From http://diesel.list.archives.mbz.org/2001/Oct/Vol_3_Num_1066/
[Further searches didn't turn up any more Mark Twain references and
since he died in 1910, I doubt he said this about the Okies migration
though he may have made a similar reference to something else. 
However, I didn't have any luck search his name with the
"intelligence" reference.]

*********

I phoned the Oklahoma Historical Society in Oklahoma City
(405-521-2491) and spoke with Brian, a gentleman in their research
department.  He checked in their sources for a reference to the "when"
of the quote and he found a June 25, 1935, quote regarding IQ tests: 
"If nations held 'em, I don't believe we would be what you call a
favorite to win."  [DT4, p. 325]  He checked the writings index for
various buzzwords related to the quote but didn't locate it.  The main
page for the Oklahoma Historical Society is
http://www.ok-history.mus.ok.us/enc/okie.htm

At Brian's suggestion, I also phoned the Will Rogers Memorial in
Claremore, Oklahoma, (918-341-0719).  I spoke with a lady named Tammy
who stated she recalled that quote and she would check and phone me
back.  When she didn't, I phoned her again and she said she hadn't had
a chance to find it and could she phone me back tomorrow morning.  I
will call her again tomorrow to discover her progress.  Should she
discover the "when", I'll gladly post this comment as an answer.  The
Will Rogers Memorial website is located at
http://www.willrogers.org/memorial.html

Best regards,
journalist-ga


SEARCH STRATEGY:

"Will Rogers" intelligence Oklahoma California
"raised the IQ" "Will Rogers"
"it raised the IQ of both states"
"will rogers" "raised the IQ"
"will rogers" "improved the IQ"
"will rogers" "average IQ of both states"
"will rogers" "IQ of both states"
"will rogers" "both states increased"
"raised the average I.Q. of two states"
"will rogers" "raised the intelligence"
"will rogers" "intelligence of both states"
"Mark Twain" intelligence California Oklahoma
"raised the average IQ" "will rogers"
"w.c. fields" IQ california oklahoma
"w.c. fields" intelligence california oklahoma
"will rogers memorial"

UNRELATED YET INTERESTING:  "[Woody] Guthrie loved him, as he loved
Charlie Chaplin, whose impishness he also absorbed; the goofy hayseed
he played on the L.A. radio shows where he first made his name was
based on Rogers's shtick. And though many other '30s
entertainers--including Bing Crosby, chief among the "sissy-voiced"
jukebox lotharios Guthrie railed against--also drew on Rogers, none of
them told friends that the men they most admired were Jesus and Will
Rogers, much less named their firstborn sons Will Rogers Guthrie."
From http://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/rock/guthrie-00.php

"He [Woody Guthrie] had a great command of the English language, but
as did his hero Will Rogers, Guthrie often used poor grammar as a
role-playing device."
From http://www.ok-history.mus.ok.us/enc/woody.htm

Woody Guthrie's lyrics to "Do Re Mi" regarding the Okie migration to
California may be viewed at
http://www.geocities.com/nashville/3448/doremi.html

Alas...I spoke with Greg today at the Will Rogers Memorial (Tammy was
unexpectedly off) and, without even referencing it, he said that it's
one of those quotes that is attributed to Rogers but has never been
verified from a source.  Greg said people often attribute quips from
the likes of Mark Twain to Rogers so Twain may have said something
similar (without regard to the states of California and Oklahoma but a
related quip regarding intelligence).  I certainly wish my hours spent
would have resulted in a definitive answer for you but it wasn't to be
this time.

Hope the information I discovered assists you in some manner and good
luck in your quest.

Best regards,
journalist-ga

Thanks Journalist,for your careful research, but still no answer-
while this begs the question of how to tip someone who hasn't found
the answer, I'm only becoming more convinced that attributing this to
Will Rogers is just another Urban Myth- even if I don't find the
primary source, if I can be brought to the attribution in the ca mid
80's New Republic reference (if only I knew where in that magazine it
was)I'd consider that as good as the "Primary Source" and at least
have some resolution of this issue.

Greetings again, Primarysource:

Regarding your reference to tipping without an answer, this is not a
function currently available at Google Answers.  However, if you wish
to offer any Researcher a token fee for information he/she provides to
you, you have the option of two choices:

Ask a separate question to that Researcher at the fee you wish to offer
or
Adjust the price of this question to a lower fee and post a
clarification asking the Researcher of your choice to post his/her
findings as an answer.

After my time of researching, I agree with you that this may be an
urban myth.  When Greg (at the Will Rogers Memorial) mentioned people
often attributing quips from the likes of Mark Twain to Rogers, I
could see his point.  This certainly appears to be the case (if not
Twain, then perhaps another source) of Rogers getting credit for
something he could have said given his depth of wit.

You may have already tried contacting the New Republic to find the
reference but if not, here is the contact info:

The New Republic
1331 H Street, NW Suite 700 
Washington, DC 20005
(202) 508-4444 
Send mail to Editors: mailto:online@tnr.com
Request article reprint: mailto:letters@tnr.com

It may be that someone there might recall the title or author of the
piece.  I searched "Okies" in their internal search and there was a
reference to an article titled "The Male Eunuch" but the article could
only be accessed from the subscription database (and it might not be
the article you seek but one simply mentioning Okies).

Best regards,
journalist-ga


SEARCH STRATEGY:

"the new republic" magazine

I don't want to mess up anyone's rating average, etc.  by rating this
answer- so I won't.  The community help was appreciated, and someday,
I will find the answer!!

Greetings Primarysource:

What a kind and gracious gesture you have made, and thank you so much!
 It wasn't necessary *and* it is a most wonderful surprise!

Like my colleague, Pafalafa, this question also got under my skin.  My
parents were both huge fans of Rogers and I consider myself lucky to
have been exposed to Will's wit when I was a child.  His turn of
phrase certainly helped shape my sense of humor.

When a question is answered, it remains open to comments until the
cows come home so I will certainly post here again should I ever
locate the primary source for this quotation.  Perhaps Paf and I will
be able to assist you better with future quests.  :)

Thank you again for your generosity.  

Best regards,
journalist-ga