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Q: Calculating Time at Geographical Midpoint ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   2 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Calculating Time at Geographical Midpoint
Category: Science > Math
Asked by: spencercat-ga
List Price: $30.00
Posted: 16 Jun 2002 12:57 PDT
Expires: 23 Jun 2002 12:57 PDT
Question ID: 27554
When traveling to Hawaii on United Airlines, the flight crew plays the
following game with the passengers.  The passenger who calculates the
correct answer (or closest to it) receives a bottle of champagne.  I
would like someone to give me the mathematical formula and then
transfer that formula to an Excel spreadsheet that I can use on my
Palm Pilot.  Thanks in advance.

Halfway Game

Determine the time of day in Los Angeles at which the flight will
reach its geographical midpoint between Los Angeles and Honolulu.

1st Half of flight...
Air Speed: 488 Nautical Miles per Hour
Headwind: 24 knots

2nd Half of Flight...
Air Speed: 490 Nautical Miles per Hour
Headwind:  21 knots

Miles Traveled at Halfway Point:  2221 miles

Flight Time: 5 hours13 min

Departure: 1:48 pm (Los Angeles Time)

(Answer): 4:14:25 pm (Los Angeles Time)

Request for Question Clarification by jeanluis-ga on 16 Jun 2002 14:04 PDT
I could probably sit down and find an equation that satisfies all of
the criteria below, however in order to really test it I would need at
least 2 data points.
 
If you know of another start time and answer, that would help verify
equation.
 
Another thing that I just thought of, when you say "1st half of the
flight" does that refer to the time, or the distance? In other words
is the 1st half of the flight the point when you are at the
geographical midpoint? OR when half of the flight time has passed?
(This matters because the speed changes, if the speed was constant it
would not matter) 

Clarification of Question by spencercat-ga on 16 Jun 2002 17:33 PDT
Jeanluis-ga...  
  
I have been told that the data for the 2nd half of the flight are 
irrelevent to the equation.  As for additional data points to test 
your equation, I don't have anything other than what I provided.  I 
can however say that I wrote down verbatim everything the pilot gave 
the passengers and then the answer that was provided at the conclusion 
of the game.  The winner was correct to within seconds.  Thanks for 
working on this. 

Request for Question Clarification by 8ball-ga on 16 Jun 2002 20:08 PDT
Question 1:

Is "2221 miles" in miles or nautical miles?  (Everything else is in
nautical miles, which is why I ask.)

Question 2:

I have worked this through and some things do not add up.  If the
plane has traveled 2221 nautical miles at the halfway point and the
total flight time is 5 hours and 13 minutes, you are going about 852
knots which is faster than the speed of sound.  Last time I checked
United does not fly any Concords.  Given that your fastest ground
speed is 469 knots, something is clearly wrong here.  (Maybe I am
missing something.)
Answer  
Subject: Re: Calculating Time at Geographical Midpoint
Answered By: molloch-ga on 16 Jun 2002 21:45 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
Hi,

Unfortunately you have some inconsistent data in your question, but
never the less you have provided ample information to have the
question answered. The formula is relatively simple; the pilot has
done the hard bit for you and given you the head wind speed, airspeed
and distance. In a real situation the wind never blows directly
towards the plane so you invariably have to calculate a crosswind and
headwind component of the wind which will affect both distance
travelled and relative ground speed.

Your question states the halfway point in miles between Los Angeles
and Honolulu as being 2221 miles. This is not correct (unless you are
going via Alaska). The distance between these 2 cities is
approximately 2560 miles.
http://www.javacommerce.com/cooljava/calculators/airdistance.html

This will vary given the crosswind value as described above. From this
we can begin to form an equation. Unfortuantly all the maths must be
done here as I have nowhere to host an Excel spreadsheet file for you.
It is just a matter of plugging these values into a spreadsheet
though.

A1 = Distance to Geographical “halfway” (miles)
A2 = AirSpeed (knots (First Half))
A3 = Head/Tail Wind (knots – make this positive for tailwind, negative
for head wind)
A4 = Conversion from Knots to mph (=1.15077945)
A5 = Departure Time (hh:mm)
A6 = A2 + A3 (GroundSpeed in knots)
A7 = A6 * A4 (Ground Speed in mph)
A8 = TEXT((A1/A7)/24,"hh:mm:ss" ) (Time taken in hh:mm:ss)
A9 = A5 + A8 (Arrival time at geographical halfway = Answer)

So plugging in your values (given total distance is 2560 miles, not
4442 miles):

(488 +(– 24))*1.15077945) * (2560/2) = 2.39 hours = 2 hours 23 minutes
50 seconds

Adding this value to your departure time of 13:48:00, we get 16:11:50
– pretty close to your correct answer of  16:14:25. The discrepancy
here is to do with the distance given (which will have been adjusted
to accommodate crosswinds). Adjusting the distance for crosswinds by
23 miles for the first half of the journey (which is well within
reasonable bounds) gives the correct answer of 16:14:25.

If you can provide the correct distance you were given we can double
check the formula to make sure it works. If it turns out you are given
the distance in knots rather than miles per hour, simple make the
value of cell A4 = 1.

Enjoy the Champagne!

Molloch

Request for Answer Clarification by spencercat-ga on 16 Jun 2002 23:06 PDT
Molloch-ga...Good job!

I reviewed my notes and I belive the 2221 miles were nautical miles
and it was the total trip distance, not the halfway point as I
originally stated.

Your formula works great, except I'm puzzled about how to factor in
the crosswinds.  Do you think this is the part that makes this a game,
the truly unknown crosswinds?  Any ideas on how to introduce this
element to the equation?

In any case, thanks for a job well done!

Clarification of Answer by molloch-ga on 17 Jun 2002 04:01 PDT
Thanks.

Did the pilot give you the crosswind factor or did he give the head
wind speed as a factor? The way to work out the headwind and deviation
given a crosswind is quite complex, it involves calculating a
head/tail wind force and a perpendicular force on the aircraft from a
the angle the wind is hitting the plane. I doubt they would give you
that information as the equation would be quite complex. Imagine that
the distance/velocity is affected in a crosswind as relative to the
air, the plane is flying on an angle to compensate for the wind.

I'll just elaborate on the formula a little so you can adapt it if
necessary, I'll explain it in a bit more depth for you (was late for
work before!):

Firstly you have to calculate a ground speed. The airspeed given is
the speed at which the air is passing the plane, this speed will be
effected by the head/tail wind. If there is a headwind you will need
to subtract the headwind speed from the airspeed, if a tailwind you
will need to add the tailwind speed to the airspeed. This is because
the airspeed of the plane is relative to the airspeed. Imagine you are
in a train travelling at 100 mph and run from the back end of the
train to the front at 5 mph. You are travelling at 5 mph compared to
the train but 105 mph compared to the ground (ground speed). If you
ran from front to back you would be travelling at 95mph groundspeed,
but still 5mph compared to the train. Now you have the relative ground
speed.

If the distance is in Nautical miles, you need to convert to miles by
multiplying it by the conversion factor: 1.15077945, there are this
many miles in each nautical mile.

From this you can work out the time taken in hours (in decimal form),
Excel converts this to minutes/seconds with the function
TEXT(value/24, "hh:mm:ss") where value is the decimal value calculated
before. You divide by 24 to get the "time past midnight" which is the
format Excel works in.

Adding this value to the departure time gives you your answer.

I'm happy to answer any more questions if you have them and can point
you to some websites that show calculations involving crosswinds etc.
Beware that this can get extremely confusing!

Hope this is helpful

Molloch
spencercat-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars

Comments  
Subject: Re: Calculating Time at Geographical Midpoint
From: robertskelton-ga on 16 Jun 2002 15:46 PDT
 
I actually won this once.

Tactic:
Scan the passengers for someone who looks like they think they are
going to win, a smug look. Add or subtract one minute from their
guess, so that if they are accurate, you have an almost 50% chance of
winning also.
Subject: Re: Calculating Time at Geographical Midpoint
From: spencercat-ga on 16 Jun 2002 17:31 PDT
 
Jeanluis-ga...

I have been told that the data for the 2nd half of the flight are
irrelevent to the equation.  As for additional data points to test
your equation, I don't have anything other than what I provided.  I
can however say that I wrote down verbatim everything the pilot gave
the passengers and then the answer that was provided at the conclusion
of the game.  The winner was correct to within seconds.  Thanks for
working on this.

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