Does anyone know for how long 121 (now TMobile) 'pay as you go' call
records are stored - or more specifically were stored in Oct 2001 to
Aug 2001

Also - how to get access to them

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Clarification of Question by agolem-ga on 28 Nov 2003 04:24 PST

Ott 2001 to Aug 2002 - typo

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Request for Question Clarification by endo-ga on 28 Nov 2003 08:48 PST

Hi,

After lengthy phonecalls with Oftel and TMobile, I think I have your
answer, but I'm not sure it's the answer you were expecting. Do you
still want me to post it as such or are you expecting a researcher to
be able to obtain records from that period?

Please let me know.

Thanks.
endo

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Clarification of Question by agolem-ga on 29 Nov 2003 02:00 PST

Yes, please post the answer that you have

After that I shall (if possible) be looking for a researcher to obtain
records for October 2001, however I reckon that is a separate request.

I am not sure what the Google rules for direct communication are
- not that I want to circumvent payment
- just that I shall (hopefully) need to give the number
- this is not against Google rules, as the phone's owner is deceased

Hi agolem,

Thank you for your question.

The organisation in the UK that governs telecommunications and their
rules is Oftel.

Their website is:

Oftel The UK regulator for the telecommunications industry
http://www.oftel.gov.uk/

After strenuous searching on the web and going through a lot of
regulations on their site, I resorted to calling them. Their phone
number is: 0845 7145000.

I explained the query to the operator, I asked him if there was any
regulation concerning the storage of Calling Data Records (this
appears to be the official term), he assured me that there was no
official regulation and that each operator is free to do as they
please. He checked twice with superiours to verify his claim. He did
however say that 6-12 months are typical. However if such information
is/was available it can be released under the Freedom of Information
Act 2000. For more inforation about the legal part of the issue, he
gave me the following contact:

Information Office Commissioner
http://www.informationcommissioner.gov.uk/
phone: 01625545745

Next I called TMobile customer services at 0845 412 5000, I got a very
nice woman who assured me that phone records were stored for only 3
days. I suspect that she might either be lying, wrong or that this is
company policy to allow only 3 days of records accessible to the
public. The reason I believe this is because mobile phone records can
be used in criminal investigations, therefore I think they must be
kept for a longer period, probably in the region of a year or so. On
the other hand it seems doubtful that records from over 2 years ago
are still available.

Let us assume that the information is available, under the Freedom of
Information Act you are allowed to access it, if it is YOUR personal
information. Therefore we have a problem, because you claim that the
phone is not yours and obviously the person who's phone it is cannot
make the claim themself. To assess whether or not you have access to
this information, I think you need to call the Information Office
Commissioner. But I suspect that unless it is required for a criminal
investigation you would have to right to access the records, again if
they exist.

Let us assume that the information exists and that you have the right
to access it, but that TMobile will not release it (at least the first
level of customer services will not), then I think you need to send a
written letter by recorded delivery to their address:

Customer Services
T-Mobile (UK)
Hatfield Business Park
Hertfordshire
AL10 9BW

You would need to join information quoted from the above Information
Office Commissioner expressing your legal right to obtain the records
and request that they release it albeit for a reasonable
administrative fee. If for some reason they have the information and
they refuse, then you have to take them to court. If they don't have
the information anymore, then unfortunately you are stuck, and there
is not much that can be done.

Concerning Google's terms of service, it is not allowed to give out
any direct means of communication or reveal any personal details.

If this isn't personal and please don't take this bad way, I am
wondering why you need this information, because I'm trying to think
of alternative ways of achieving your goal.

I'm sorry if this answer isn't as positive as you expected, but until
Oftel regulates this area, the situation will be at best erratic.

If you need any more help or require any clarifications please do not
hesitate to ask, I will be more than happy to answer.

Thanks.
endo

Search strategy

oftel
://www.google.com/search?q=oftel

call records stored site:oftel.gov.uk
://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=call+records+stored+site%3Aoftel.gov.uk

TMobile
http://www.tmobile.co.uk

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Clarification of Answer by endo-ga on 29 Nov 2003 04:24 PST

I am very sorry to hear about your story. It must be a very hard situation.

I would not be surprised that the records for pay as you go are stored
for less time than the records for monthly plans. This is because pay
as you go is anonymous as such. Meaning that anyone can buy a phone
and a SIM card, get a number and use it, without revealing their
identity. The credit can be increased anonymously as well. Therefore
associating a phone with a person is an extremely difficult case to
make. I agree that 3 months seems short, and the 3 days that person
told me is ridiculous (to be honest I might have misunderstood the
woman, she had a strong Scottish accent and I'm not used to it,
although I did make her repeat it 4 times). But then again, even if
these records were available, you will have a hard time proving that a
given phone was owned or ever used by a certain person. Therefore such
data would not be very useful I believe form a judiciary point of
view.

Similarly from a marketing point of view, it does not make sense to
keep them either, since they don't know who you are, they can't really
spam you. However now they've come up with that eTopup scheme. This
allows them to keep track of your expenditures and follow your trail.
So they might have recently increased the period but again I doubt it
goes back all the way to the period you mention.

I'm guessing that the phone directory on the phone/SIM card is still
present. Could it be possible that these calls you are looking for
were made using the directory on the phone? If this is the case (this
is a very long shot), you could try calling every single number in
there (excluding obvious ones) and asking them if they remember your
girlfriend calling them.

Failing that, if you believe there has been some kind of "cover-up" or
you believe that the conditions regarding the death are suspicious
enough to warrant an investigation, I think you need to get some legal
help. Please note, I am just speculating from here on, I am not a
legal expert. If you make a good enough case, a judge can subpoena
TMobile to release the records (in the very unlikely event that they
exist).

One more possibility I can think of, is asking BT. Maybe the call was
made to a landline. In which case BT would have a record. Going
through BTs policy for call data records, they store all relevant
information concerning every call made from or to one of their
numbers. However I can't seem to find a policy regarding how long they
store these records. You might however be able to find someone there
who is helpful

BT
Residential Billing: Phone 0800 150111 
Residential Customer Service: Phone 150 from a BT line.

I've been on hold with BT for 20 minutes, I hope I can get through to
someone, I will let you know what happens with the call, just wanted
to post this. Update: just got through, sorry they don't keep records
of incoming calls. :(

Thank you for the great rating and very generous tip.

Again I am very sorry about your loss.

Wishing you good luck.

Thanks.
endo

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Request for Answer Clarification by agolem-ga on 30 Nov 2003 04:21 PST

I thank you for your research.
It has taken me 24 hours to digest.
I can think (off hand) of at least three Governmental agencies who
would be very interested in storing 'deep historical' records of
mobile calls and locations - especially PAYG mobiles which tend to be
used by the less reputable members of society.
It is also possible that under Company law, the operator has to retain
records for six years.
As a computer programmer I once wrote a speculative system
specification for a telephone sub-provider.  Total data storage was a
requirement.
My instinct is that such records exist, however getting at them is
something of a problem, there is no reason for the operator to assist
- something you confirmed. Sadly, while a programmer, I am not a
hacker.
As clarification, I found that in Nov 2001, BT did offer a service to
provide a list of outgoing calls, I used it, which is why I knew the
'signature' calls that should have been on the mobile. At the time BT
denied that incoming records were maintained, although it makes sense
that they are.

Curiously, this looks like an 'entrapment' lure to flush out people
leaking to the press. It is not, but as Mandy Rice-Davies said...
Again, I thank you for your research - sometimes one needs other
people to check things out - an impartial appraisal. I appreciate your
help.
Very much.

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Clarification of Answer by endo-ga on 30 Nov 2003 05:52 PST

I agree that there might be something we're not being told.
While I was thinking about solutions for your query, one thing that
crept to mind was to hack into the NSA (blame Hollywood for that). But
I wouldn't be surprised that GCHQ (UK equivalent) stores this type of
information for a lot longer than they'd want us to know. Getting to
such data will be extremely difficult to say the least (maybe start a
career there?). And as you suggest this has to be kept secret or we'd
have The Mirror and The Sun going crazy about privacy.

I'm sorry I couldn't provide you with what you were hoping for. I hope
one day you will be able to attain closure.

Thanks.
endo

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Request for Answer Clarification by agolem-ga on 30 Nov 2003 07:40 PST

Yes, you are right - closure
- and making sure it never happens again
- also making sure that my 'closure' mechanism is less drastic than I forsee
I have a feeling that you might have some ideas

Is there any way we can 'privatize' this 
- would Google accept an 'Honour System' 
- Can you ask them

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Clarification of Answer by endo-ga on 30 Nov 2003 08:20 PST

I'm sorry Google has made it very clear in the past that all
conversations must remain public and that any disclosure of private
contact details is forbiddden.
I understand what you mean by honour system, but that would require
revealing contact details.

To be honest though, your question is now onto page 5. Researchers
will very rarely look at answered questions (they have a filter to
look at only unanswered questions), and since it is pretty far down
the list of current questions, I doubt anyone will read much into it
unless they have the exact same query as your question title, in which
case they would stop reading after the first answer.

Your story has touched me and I really want to help as much as possible.

Thanks.
endo55

Current questions on Google Answers
http://answers.google.com/answers/currentquestions

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Clarification of Answer by endo-ga on 30 Nov 2003 12:07 PST

Sorry I forgot to specify that I fully understand if you do not want
to disclose any more information here. Wishing you good luck with
whatever you choose to do.

Thanks.
endo55

Many thanks for your research.
I think I owe you an explanation. On Oct 9th 2001 my girlfriend of 9
years died in peculiar circumstances.  Six weeks later I found a note
that was obviously an address jotted down during a telephone call. 
The constabulary was not interested. At first I believed that they had
not obtained a list of her calls, and in July 2001 employed a private
detective who told me that TMobile 'stored records for 3 months and
then discarded them'.  This I cannot believe, especially after 9/11,
and especially for relatively anonymous pay as you go mobiles. The
circumstances surrounding her death were sufficiently peculiar to
warrant ensuring that what I am pretty sure happened, should never
happen again.
I know of one other similar incident.
To make things worse, I obtained a list of calls physically on the
mobile in Sept 2002, and the last two calls that I knew she made had
been physically deleted by someone.
This opens some interesting questions.
I need to think about what you have told me.
It looks as if I have run into a brick wall.
Many, Many thanks for your research.

I'm not sure that the information commissioner comes into this-
generally deals with public bodies, not telephone companies surely?

Nor would the Data Protection Registrar be of any use to you, since
the information does not relate to a living named individual.

As regards phone records themselves, they are kept (in archived form)
by BT for 6 years in case of dispute, and I believe that all telephone
companies keep records for a similar period.

When the T Mobile CSA said 3 days, I think she probably meant 3 days
in an easily retrievable format.

Yes, I think you are right about the six years - it makes sense.
Basically I need to find a 'tin opener'.