I love bagels, but I agree with the prevailing notion that it's hard
to get a good one outside of New York. What distinguishes a New York
bagel from the wannabes? The ingredients? Methods of preparation? The
skills and ethnic background of the bakers (i.e., must they have
trained under Jewish mothers who made them for their families back in
the old country?)?

One site I found implies it's the New York water that makes the difference:

http://www.bagelboss.com/bagel-reference.html

Another says you gotta be "an old bagel guy" to make 'em right:
 
http://www.allbaking.net/ch/1999/june/bestbread1.html

And a third says that the "New York" part has to do not with the
method of making the bagel, but with what's put on them later:
 
http://recipecircus.com/recipes/Dawn_D/OINK/Bagels_Anytime.html

Are there any national bagel specialty bakery/coffee shop chains that
serve what a bagel afficianado would consider a real New York bagel,
or are such shops confined to ethnic mom-and-pop operations?

Lox anyone?

---

Request for Question Clarification by leapinglizard-ga on 13 Dec 2003 12:07 PST

I was always under the impression that a New York bagel is called that
way to distinguish it from a Montreal bagel. The Montreal bagel is
dense, yeasty, and chewy. The New York bagel is soft and fat,
resembling bread more than pastry.

leapinglizard

---

Clarification of Question by nautico-ga on 13 Dec 2003 12:35 PST

That's the first time I've heard the term "Montreal bagel" and so am
unable to confirm the distinction you describe.

---

Request for Question Clarification by leapinglizard-ga on 13 Dec 2003 13:11 PST

My point is merely that the appellation "New York bagel" seems to me
to make a categorical distinction and not, as you suggest in your
question, a qualitative one. Are you open to an answer that disabuses
you of the notion that New York bagels are necessary superior to all
others?

leapinglizard

---

Request for Question Clarification by leapinglizard-ga on 13 Dec 2003 13:15 PST

I am not alone in my theory of the bagel dichotomy. Consider the
following brief essay.

http://www.tenspeedpress.com/whatsnew/page.php3?ftr=243

leapinglizard

---

Request for Question Clarification by leapinglizard-ga on 13 Dec 2003 13:18 PST

For "necessary superior" read "necessarily superior".

---

Clarification of Question by nautico-ga on 13 Dec 2003 13:54 PST

I just experienced the following epiphany (with the help of a
knowledgeable friend): could the alleged (!) superiority of the New
York bagel have something to do with kosher methods/ingredients? Of
course, that would fly in the face of Pafalafa's testimonial to
Korean-made bagels. One other point: doesn't it make sense that one is
more apt to find the best of ANYTHING in a city the size of New York?
I think we're getting closer to a definitive, paid answer here.

Make no mistake, New York bagels are different and vastly superior to all others.

I grew up in NYC, the bagel capital of the world.  More to the point,
I grew up in Brooklyn, the bagel capital of NY.  In fact, I lived not
far from Kings Highway which is well known as -- you guessed it -- the
bagel capital of Brooklyn.

The odd thing is, now that I live in Washington DC, I have found a
bagel place every bit as good as the ones I grew up with.  Is it
family tradition?  Ethnic heritage?  I don't think so...the DC bagel
place is run by Koreans.

The reals difference between cities is that you can't walk two blocks
in NYC without running into a decent bagel place (or pizza!), whereas
you can search high and low in other cities until hitting paydirt. 
Culinary-wise, I think the difference is largely in equipment -- the
right ovens, cooling racks, etc -- combined with the attention to
detail and commitment to quality that is the hallmark of all good
cooks.

Kapish?

Lizard, I just read that little essay that compares Montreal bagels
with the NY variant. Fascinating.

Perhaps it's simply in the name. There's something about New York.
That city has charm, character, and there's a *feeling* to it. No
other city has that--not like New York City.

I grew up in NYC as well and there is just a different taste and
quality to a NY bagel. It's very hard to describe. I went to CA and
visited "Noah's Bagels" which touts "New York bagels" but they sure
didn't taste anything like real NY bagels. I think NY bagels have a
unique taste, distinctive and strong. It *could* be the water -- I've
heard that NY pizza is the same way -- it's very hard to find decent
NY pizza anywhere but NY. After 4 years of searching I finally found
one place that makes really cool NY pizza here in TX. I stay away from
those chains like Dominoes, etc. if I can help it -- that's not *real"
pizza to me.

Mimi Sheraton spent many years and visted bakeries all over the world
to find the definitive bialy (a small, round yeast bread [relative of
the bagel] with an indentation in the center, topped with onions and,
sometimes, poppy seeds), in the process she learned a lot about
bagels, too.  It's all in her great book, The Bialy Eaters The Story
of Bread and a Lost World By Mimi Sheraton Broadway Books.

Be warned, this book will set you on your own quest.

Nellie Bly
Google Answers Researcher