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Q: origin of word defeatist in German? ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   3 Comments )
Question  
Subject: origin of word defeatist in German?
Category: Reference, Education and News
Asked by: bugbear-ga
List Price: $20.00
Posted: 30 Dec 2003 20:07 PST
Expires: 29 Jan 2004 20:07 PST
Question ID: 291687
The word "defeatist" seems to have entered English from German.
It was used by Ludendorff in a purge of his opponents in 1917.
Was the word in German also "defeatist" and did Ludendorff
invent it, or did it already exist?
Answer  
Subject: Re: origin of word defeatist in German?
Answered By: pinkfreud-ga on 30 Dec 2003 21:45 PST
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
The actual origins of the words "defeatist" and "defeatism" appear to
be French. The German words for defeatist are "defätistisch" (as an
adjective) and "Defätist" (as a noun), virtually identical to the
French "défaitiste."

"Defeatism, defeatist are 1918, from Fr. défaitiste, in reference to the Russians."

Etymology Online: Defeat
http://www.etymonline.com/d1etym.htm

"An author says the word 'defeatism' was first coined by the Russian
revolutionaries during WWI as an explicit policy for the defeat of
ones own country. Through quick googling and such I've been able to
find all sorts of references to Lenin's doctrine of 'revolutionary
defeatism' but that would suggest that the word 'defeatism' already
existed. Anybody have a definitive answer on this?

[ . . . ]

The OED [Oxford English Dictionary] has the first English use of
'defeatism' in the Observer of 9 June 1918, the quotation being 'Irish
Nationalists will henceforth support Pacifism, and that means
defeatism.' But Andrew Stuttaford may be on to something when he
suggests a French origin--the OED has the French 'défaitisme' as the
derivation. And surely Lenin, like other educated Russians of his day,
knew French."

National Review Online: The Corner
http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/03_10_05_corner-archive.asp

I hope this information is useful. If anything is unclear, or if a
link does not function, please request clarification; I'll be glad to
offer further clarification before you rate my answer.

Best regards,
pinkfreud

Request for Answer Clarification by bugbear-ga on 30 Dec 2003 22:27 PST
If Lenin actually used a word like "defeatism" as early as 1904
then we probably have our answer. But what actual Russian word 
did Lenin use?  I'd like to be sure it was not just some word
that we *now* translate as "defeatism".  The real proof would be
a pre-1917 translation of Lenin's writing into German (or French
or English) in which this word was translated as one of the above.

Request for Answer Clarification by bugbear-ga on 30 Dec 2003 22:28 PST
FYI, that quote given as the first in the OED is actually the
second.  The first seems to refer to WWI.  Just goes to show
you can't believe everything you read on the Web...

Clarification of Answer by pinkfreud-ga on 31 Dec 2003 12:44 PST
As noted in the comment below, the Russian word for "defeatism" is 
?????????????.

Rambler
http://www.rambler.ru/dict/ruen/00/86/b7.shtml

I've found numerous mentions of the term "revolutionary defeatism" as
used by Lenin, with 1904 as the earliest date:

"Lenin does not appear, therefore, to have introduced anything new
with his 'revolutionary defeatism' in 1904. However, when he
introduced the same formula again, in 1914, in relation to World War
One, he did introduce something new. To be sure, his characterisation
of this war as an 'imperialist' war had its roots deep in the whole
heritage of ideas of the Second International and, especially, in the
Stuttgart and Basel decisions. But differences emerged on this common
basis when it came to action. The celebrated amendment which Lenin,
Rosa Luxemburg and Martov presented at Stuttgart, requiring the
socialists to make use of the crisis created by the war in order to
rouse the masses and thereby to hasten the downfall of capitalist
class rule, expresses in reality the opinion of the international left
rather than that of the organisation as a whole.

This was the basis on which Lenin formulated the policy which he
called 'defeatist' ' He intended it, at first, for Russia alone, at
the time when the war was declared, and based it on the principle,
'when two thieves fall out, let them both perish!' He wrote on 24
August 1914 that the duty of Russian Social Democrats was to wage a
pitiless struggle against Great Russian chauvinism, and that the
defeat of the Russian armies would be the lesser evil."

Revolutionary History: Revolutionary Defeatism
http://www.revolutionary-history.co.uk/backiss/Vol1/No3/RevDeft.html

From a description of "War and Revolution: Lenin and the Myth of
Revolutionary Defeatism," by Hal Draper:

"What did 'revolutionary defeatism' mean?... Hal Draper demonstrates
that the slogan coined by Lenin in 1914 was based on a myth that Marx
and Engels would have supported a war against tsarist Russia, even one
waged by a bourgeois government."

Prometheus Books
http://www.prometheusbooks.com/site/catalog/book_1135.html

Although it is evident that Lenin popularized the words "defeatism"
and "defeatist" and coined the phrase "revolutionary defeatism," I
have found no sources which give a Russian origin for "defeatism" and
"defeatist."

From Merriam-Webster's Third New International Dictionary (Unabridged):

"de·feat·ism...

 French défaitisme, from défait defeat (from Middle French 
 deffaite, desfaite, from feminine of deffait, desfait, past 
 participle) + -isme, -ism"

"de·feat·ist...

 French défaitiste, from défait defeat + -iste -ist"

~pinkfreud
bugbear-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars and gave an additional tip of: $8.00
excellent work

Comments  
Subject: Re: origin of word defeatist in German?
From: fp-ga on 31 Dec 2003 01:52 PST
 
According to Pfeifer, Wolfgang (ed.) "Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Deutschen"

http://www.dtv.de/dtv.cfm?bereich=N&wohin=dtvnr32511

the French word "défaitisme" was coined by Aleksinskij in 1915,
translating a Russian word also coined by Aleksinskij. Lenin used the
word in the same year (referring to Aleksinskij).

Aleksinskij:
http://hronos.km.ru/biograf/alexinski.html

The Russian word used by Aleksinskij and Lenin:
http://www.rambler.ru/dict/ruen/00/86/b7.shtml

I'm quoting from the 1989 edition of "Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Deutschen".
Subject: Re: origin of word defeatist in German?
From: fp-ga on 01 Jan 2004 03:55 PST
 
There is an article on "Defaitismus" by Theodor Bergmann in Vol. 2 of
"Historisch-kritisches Wörterbuch des Marxismus" ("Historico-Critical
Dictionary of Marxism").

HKWM: 
http://www.inkrit.de/hkwm/
http://www.argument.de/wissenschaft/hkwm.html

Volume 2:
http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~hkwmred/hkwm/edition/band2/2_stich.html
http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~hkwmred/hkwm/edition/band2/2_verf.html

HKWM, sample entries: 
http://www.inkrit.de/hkwm/leseproben/lesindex.html

The article on "Defaitismus" could be as detailed as these sample entries.

Bugbear, perhaps you have a library nearby which would enable you to
have a look at the mentioned article on "Defaitismus".
Should this not be the case, I could have a look (sometime during the
next two weeks).

However, you actually asked:
"Was the word in German also 'defeatist' and did Ludendorff invent it,
or did it already exist?"

To find out if Ludendorff used the word, it would be helpful if you
would cite the English source according to which Ludendorff used this
word.
Subject: Re: origin of word defeatist in German?
From: pinkfreud-ga on 03 Jan 2004 17:30 PST
 
Thank you very much for the five-star rating and the generous tip!

~pinkfreud

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