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Subject:
Divison by zero
Category: Science > Math Asked by: halejrb-ga List Price: $4.00 |
Posted:
20 Jun 2002 10:40 PDT
Expires: 27 Jun 2002 10:40 PDT Question ID: 29826 |
In mathematics, division by zero is undefined. However, why can't a number divided by zero be defined as equal to infinity? |
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Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
Answered By: aditya2k-ga on 20 Jun 2002 11:02 PDT Rated: |
Hi halejrb, Good day. This is a very interesting question which has troubled all of us at one stage or the other. Some of us have learnt that that x/0 is undefined, some of learnt that x/0 is infinity (x not equal to 0, in which case it is undefined). I have learnt the latter. However, I'm not going to answer based on what I've learnt. I've browsed a few internet sites, and I've come across some interesting explanations. One particular site says that, "There are, however, contexts in which division by zero can be considered as defined. For example, division by zero z/0 for (z belongs to C*, z not = 0) in the extended complex plane C-Star is defined to be a quantity known as complex infinity." ( URL :: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/DivisionbyZero.html ) Related URLs Division by Zero and Continuity http://www.math.utah.edu/~alfeld/math/precise.html University of Toronto Mathematics Network - Answers and Explanations Is there really such a thing as "infinity"? http://www.math.toronto.edu/mathnet/plain/answers/infinity.html Why You Can't Divide Nine By Zero http://www.math.toronto.edu/mathnet/plain/questionCorner/nineoverzero.html Division by Zero http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/58497.html I hope this answers your question. Have a good day :-) Cheers, aditya2k |
halejrb-ga
rated this answer:
Wow, that's a great answer. The U. of Toronto site gives the typical mediocre high school answer that I got when I was that age. But I always suspected that certain higher level math applications allowed for division by zero and you've satisfied my curiosity. |
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Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: thx1138-ga on 20 Jun 2002 11:06 PDT |
Hi again halejrb ! "But maybe you're thinking of saying that 1/0 = infinity. Well then, what's "infinity"? How does it work in all the other equations? Does infinity - infinity = 0? Does 1 + infinity = infinity? If so, the associative rule doesn't work, since (a+b)+c = a+(b+c) will not always work: 1 + (infinity - infinity) = 1 + 0 = 1, but (1 + infinity) - infinity = infinity - infinity = 0. You can try to make up a good set of rules, but it always leads to nonsense, so to avoid all the trouble we just say that it doesn't make sense to divide by zero. What happens if you add apples to oranges? It just doesn't make sense, so the easiest thing is just to say that it doesn't make sense, or, as a mathematician would say, "it is undefined". Maybe that's the best way to look at it. When, in mathematics, you see a statement like "operation XYZ is undefined", you should translate it in your head to "operation XYZ doesn't make sense"." http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/53336.html Hope it helps ! THX1138 |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: godonhigh-ga on 20 Jun 2002 11:16 PDT |
The last comment explains this quite well. It can be defined as infinity however that doesn't make sense. However, even that is not true because similar to the creation of negative and complex numbers, there is another more universal form of arithmetic called non-standard arithmentic which uses non-standard numbers (i.e. multiples of infinity of infintesimals). |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: sankoo-ga on 20 Jun 2002 11:21 PDT |
dear halejrb; i have read your question & also an answer provided & comment. what i feel is that equality(=) is something that gives an association of exactness, whereas infinity is a relative thing.definately one infinity can be greater than other.if we go by the defination of division , then division by zero is the number of zeroes in which the given number can be broken into. logically a larger number can be broken into larger number of zeroes(relatively). so if we define any number divided by zero as "=" infinity then there shall be ambiguity.since infinity is not exactly a value but a range of values ( as we saw that one infinity can be greater than other) hence there cannot be the equality association while dealing with infinity. |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: xy-ga on 20 Jun 2002 11:24 PDT |
The problem is one of consistency. If A/B = C, this implies that A = B * C. Suppose A = 1 and B = 0 If we set C = infinity, then the first equation is fine, but the second becomes false since 1 <> 0 * infinity. Therefore division by zero is undefined. |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: cancan101-ga on 20 Jun 2002 13:10 PDT |
The past comment is correct however: When graphing x/0 (x<>0) you would graph an asympote to a line on the point with a value of something over 0. 0/0 =0 not undefined. |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: trob-ga on 20 Jun 2002 13:13 PDT |
While this isn't a direct answer I think it will convince you ... X * Y is defined to be the area of a rectangle with sides X and Y. Division is defined to be the inverse of multiplication. In other words if A = X * Y then A / X = Y. Consider rectangles R1 which is 5 by 0 and R2 which is 7 by 0. By multiplication we see that R1 has area 5 * 0 = 0 and R2 has area 7 * 0 = 0. If division were defined for zero then 0 / 0 would have to be both 5 and 7. More generally in any system that is not trivial, undefined has to be an outcome in at least one situation. Otherwise you would be able to resolve equations where sufficient information is lacking (which would mean that the system is trivial). The stuff above is a good example; having just the area and that one side was length zero, you lack sufficient information to know the length of the other side. If you could solve 0 / 0 then you would be able to calculate values that you don't have sufficient information to know. |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: themabbit-ga on 20 Jun 2002 13:16 PDT |
I've always been taught that infinity is not a number, but a limit concept. If infinity were a number then 1 = 2: Because 1*Infinty = 2*Infinity but if infinity were a number then you could divide by it and the above equation would be 1 = 2, which is wrong. So I guess you would have to say that dividing by zero is undefined, although in certain engineering applicaitons you can take it to be infinity to help the numbers come out correctly. -TheMabbit |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: jkey-ga on 20 Jun 2002 15:05 PDT |
I have to disagree with the spirit of some comments. There is a sensible and consistent way of doing maths, different from the standard one, where some division by some "zeros" does make sense, and equals some "infinity". According to Renling Jin, professor of mathematical logic, College of Charleston Nonstandard analysis allows us to use "infinitely large" numbers and non-zero numbers which are "infinitesimally close to" zero, in an enlarged universe called nonstandard universe. Taking this advantage, one can derive a result in the nonstandard universe and then push down the result to the standard world to get an interesting theorem. http://math.cofc.edu/areas.html search nonstandard analysis http://members.tripod.com/PhilipApps/nonstandard.html http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/analysis_hyperreals.html |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: bananarchy-ga on 20 Jun 2002 21:30 PDT |
Additionally, division by zero reaches new bounds of inexactitude when we divide zero by zero. There are three conflicting definitions here: X/X = 1 X/0 = undefined (or infinity, depending on your textbook) 0/X = 0 X/Y = X * (1/Y) [Such that 0/0 = 0 * infinity/undefined, and 0 * infinity is a question unto itself] So, as a short answer: working with the idea of infinity as a concrete number like 3 or 42 will always lead to heartbreak, and dividing by zero is synonymous to multiplying by infinity. Cheers! |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: dannidin-ga on 21 Jun 2002 03:25 PDT |
Here's my 2 cents' worth, and bear in mind I happen to be a professional mathematician. For thousands of years, mathematicians debated this and related questions. In the beginning, only the existence of the natural numbers (1,2,3,..) was acknowledged, since they were used for counting and bore an obvious correspondence to "real" objects i.e. 3 apples, 4 oranges etc. The concept of zero did not exist, nor that of infinity, the negative numbers, or the real numbers. "Does it make sense to subtract 7 from 3?" someone asked one day in a prehistoric "google answers" forum. Obviously not, since if you have 3 apples you cannot take away 7! Someone answered. However, it was eventually realized that the _concept_ of subtracting 7 from 3 can be useful sometimes, for example if I have 3 apples and want to buy from you something in exchange for 7 apples, we can both agree that I should owe you 4 apples and give them to you at a later time, so in a sense for the duration of the debt I will have "-4" apples. And so the negative numbers, and zero (3-3=0) were introduced. The fractions, or rational numbers, were soon to follow as the solutions to the equation x*a=b, where a and b are integers. Then it was realized by the Pythagoreans that even they were not enough, since equations such as x^x = 2 (which describes the diagonal of a square whose side is 1) cannot be solved in rational numbers, so the real numbers were introduced. Then, a millenium and a half later, it was eventually realized that even the enigmatic and seemingly meaningless equation x*x=-1 can be made to "make sense" if one introduces the concept of imaginary and complex numbers. As for the concept of infinity, it must have been introduced in the last few centuries as mathematics progressed to more and more advanced notions. It does not have one single meaning but again it is a useful concept in various contexts. It is "the number that is greater than 1,2,3,4,..." (again, the precise meaning of this differs with the context, in higher mathematics there are many different notions of infinity such as cardinal numbers, ordinal numbers, orders of magnitude of growth of a function, the pole of the Riemann sphere and many more) Notice that, in all the cases described above, the introduction of the new concept always followed a stage where everybody thought that such a concept can not exist, is "meaningless", "undefined" etc. The mere mention of the possibility of existence of such a concept would provoke very emotional, even outraged responses. (There are some well-documented examples of this, specifically for the case of the introduction of complex numbers, you can read about this in the wonderful book "The Mathematical Experience" by Reuben Hersh and Philip J. Davis, you are all big boys so I don't need to give an amazon.com link). Finally, sometime in the 19th century, mathematicians began to realize that there is really not much point in debating whether something is meaningful, makes sense etc. This was wasting a lot of time and energy and hindering the development of new mathematics. Do you want 1/0 to be defined as 5? Someone suggested. Go ahead! See where that gets you... So, a new approach was introduced, the so-called axiomatic approach, according to which one may define any new concept one wishes, and explore the logical consequences thereof, without having to answer to silly questions such as "does it make sense". One may even redefine addition as 3+4=5 if one should be so inclined. The ultimate test for the value of a mathematical theory was whether it contained beautiful ideas, had concepts and results that were esthetically appealing, and also it helped (but was not necessary) that the ideas be useful. After this very long introduction, I will come back to the original question of division by zero: You may define it anyway you like. However, there are some definitions, and in some given contexts, that have been found to be useful and to possess properties that are appealing. Infinity is the most common of them, practically anybody can understand why intuitively it is a logical choice. However, in some contexts there doesn't really seem to be a satisfying answer, one that appealing properties, and this is why traditionally it is explained to laymen (rather than give the long explanation I gave) that division by zero is "undefined". Hope this helps, -d |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: dsico-ga on 24 Jun 2002 17:31 PDT |
I thoroughly agree with this previous comment. The earlier commentary seems to miss the point. However there is a problem with all Axiomatic formulations of mathemaitcs that was brought up ealier this century by that chap named Goedel. But you probably don't want to go there. dsico |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: zhiwenchong-ga on 26 Jun 2002 22:11 PDT |
This is tongue in cheek, but: Sherman's theorem (named after my friend Sherman Tangga) states that any number divided by zero is the number itself. i.e. n / 0 = n The rationale? If you have n bananas and your divide it by zero (in other words, you don't divide it at all ... the operator is redundant) you will have n bananas left. Needless to say, many people hit him on the head for that... ;-) |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: math-ga on 27 Jun 2002 03:30 PDT |
Arguments (against division by zero) like "you cannot divide an apple into 0 pieces" are not very good. After all, with that interpretation you can only divide by positive numbers: what does it mean to divide an apple into -3 pieces or imaginary pieces? The question is whether there are OTHER sound interpretations or whether it works mathematically. At http://www.matematik.su.se/~jesper/research/wheels/ it is shown that one may extend the set of numbers so that division by zero works. Moreover, it is shown that this can be done for any commutative ring (and in fact, any commutative semiring). |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: chennes-ga on 28 Jun 2002 20:46 PDT |
For more info in infinity (esp. the history) you might try: The Mystery of the Aleph by Amir D. Aczel He is a quite good writer, and makes things very clear - it's not a very high-level book, but for the non-mathematician, it is a good exposure to the concepts. Chris |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: zhiwenchong-ga on 05 Jul 2002 11:11 PDT |
Well, let's see why we can't divide by zero. Let a, b be real numbers: a = b aČ = ab aČ - bČ = ab - bČ (a - b)(a + b) = b(a - b) a + b = b |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: aditya2k-ga on 05 Jul 2002 14:45 PDT |
a+b=b works when a=b=0 :-) |
Subject:
Re: Divison by zero
From: zhiwenchong-ga on 05 Jul 2002 22:17 PDT |
Hi Aditya2k: Sure, but a and b are two arbitrary and equal numbers. If it is always true that a = b => a + b = b, then one is necessarily presupposing what a (and as a consequence, b) is (zero). If that were the case, x = y, h = g... ad infinitum will always be zero. By implication then, every unknown then has the value of zero, which is an absurdity. But I'm sure you knew that... you were just nitpicking, weren't you? ;-) |
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